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+---- Thread: Reset inactivity timer when an attack is blocked (/showthread.php?tid=47727)
Re: Reset inactivity timer when an attack is blocked - Sargent Q - 11-01-2016
Has it actually happened to you or someone in your game since 1.0.2? Given those conditions that you have listed there? Or does it just happen to people who don't want to move all game?
I have not seen a single wave go on for the amount of time for the AFK timer, without having to tome multiple times because of nearly wiping, in over a year.
And if it is to dangerous and long for you to try and kill the ranged as a shield wall, WHY are you not repairing your shields after the wave. I repair my shields after any wave that has cracked them in the slightest.
Re: Reset inactivity timer when an attack is blocked - Kip - 11-01-2016
One thing worth noting is that prep time does not count toward inactivity. If you repair your shield before toming so you can pick it up after, for instance, that is a valid way of proving your presence.
I would be fine with considering more ways of indicating presence but those ways cannot be so easily abused as to negate the entire system for a certain class of characters. Counting shield damage, in my opinion, would entirely negate the system for shielders and is not a valid way of testing for presence.
Re: Reset inactivity timer when an attack is blocked - Sargent Q - 11-01-2016
And would be ridiculously easy to exploit. Someone goes AFK in the corner with their shield up and has a friend who every couple of minutes, shoots a arrow into it. Tell me how that is not Exploitable please.
Re: Reset inactivity timer when an attack is blocked - Malong - 11-01-2016
(11-01-2016, 05:20 PM)Sargent Q link Wrote: Has it actually happened to you or someone in your game since 1.0.2? Given those conditions that you have listed there? Or does it just happen to people who don't want to move all game?Yes, it has happened since 1.0.2, these scenarios are not all hypothetical.
(11-01-2016, 05:20 PM)Sargent Q link Wrote: I have not seen a single wave go on for the amount of time for the AFK timer, without having to tome multiple times because of nearly wiping, in over a year.Well, the AFK timer hasn't been in place for over a year...
(11-01-2016, 05:20 PM)Sargent Q link Wrote: And if it is to dangerous and long for you to try and kill the ranged as a shield wall, WHY are you not repairing your shields after the wave. I repair my shields after any wave that has cracked them in the slightest.Nobody typed that it's dangerous for players to kill ranged as the shield wall. If you want to use a proof by contradiction, you have to use a point that someone has actually stated. Anyways, yes, shields are repaired when they're cracked, there are still waves where the shield is not cracked at all, so no repair is necessary and thus, during the next wave, the players in the shield wall will be considered inactive if they did not have the opportunity to kill remaining ranged bots, which is quite frequent considering everyone goes out at the end of waves. Are we to say "don't help them, save those bots or they'll be inactive?" Are we to then presume that everyone would coordinate and follow these directives?
Again, the root issue is players being considered inactive even when they contribute to the success of a game. And nobody has disputed that overzealously dealing with hypothetical AFK players has a high potential of excluding honest players from rewards, and/or encouraging players that play necessary classes from no longer performing those functions.
Re: Reset inactivity timer when an attack is blocked - Malong - 11-01-2016
(11-01-2016, 05:21 PM)Kip link Wrote: One thing worth noting is that prep time does not count toward inactivity. If you repair your shield before toming so you can pick it up after, for instance, that is a valid way of proving your presence.It's good that preparation time does not further exacerbate the determination of inactivity. But there are many times that a dead shielder is getting resurrected only after a new wave has started, and cleaning up remaining waves is not possible, and the benefit of decreased repair and heal time is not granted. I and others think this was borne from a slightly irrational fear that has unintended consequences on honest players. Even if what you were saying was true, shielders that are truly inactive would have their shields broken, they would die, and not receive any rewards anyway. It's already a self-correcting measure.
I would be fine with considering more ways of indicating presence but those ways cannot be so easily abused as to negate the entire system for a certain class of characters. Counting shield damage, in my opinion, would entirely negate the system for shielders and is not a valid way of testing for presence.
Again: in the rush to punish non-contributors, you also inadvertently punish contributions from necessary classes and goals.
Re: Reset inactivity timer when an attack is blocked - Sargent Q - 11-01-2016
I know how long the timer for AFKing is. And I have not seen a wave take that long, except for toming because of wiping, in over a year. This was carefully thought out well before it was put in.
Waves that you don't get a shield crack during are not going to be long enough to cause any issues.
There is no reasonable excuse to not do anything in the amount of time it takes the game to count you as AFK. NONE. Only time where it MIGHT get thin is the waves that you HAVE to repair shields if you hope to not die during it.
Re: Reset inactivity timer when an attack is blocked - Malong - 11-01-2016
(11-01-2016, 05:24 PM)Sargent Q link Wrote: And would be ridiculously easy to exploit. Someone goes AFK in the corner with their shield up and has a friend who every couple of minutes, shoots a arrow into it. Tell me how that is not Exploitable please.Obviously, it would only be active if it was a hit from a bot. I didn't think obvious trivialities needed to be stated.
But your post also reinforces the previously stated ideas. It is the fear of the minority and corner cases that punishes honest players.
"They who can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety."
Re: Reset inactivity timer when an attack is blocked - Malong - 11-01-2016
(11-01-2016, 05:41 PM)Sargent Q link Wrote: I know how long the timer for AFKing is. And I have not seen a wave take that long, except for toming because of wiping, in over a year. This was carefully thought out well before it was put in.You say that it was well thought out, but the timer has already been changed since it was implemented as mentioned below. It seems you are not entertaining the possibility that the system is imperfect, when the fact that it has been adjusted once would say otherwise.
(11-01-2016, 04:38 PM)Kip link Wrote: Adjustments to the timers have been made since 1.0.0 was first released after there were some initial problems with shielders being marked inactive too quickly.
(11-01-2016, 05:41 PM)Sargent Q link Wrote: Waves that you don't get a shield crack during are not going to be long enough to cause any issues.I've addressed that previously here:
(11-01-2016, 05:32 PM)Malong link Wrote: Anyways, yes, shields are repaired when they're cracked, there are still waves where the shield is not cracked at all, so no repair is necessary and thus, during the next wave, the players in the shield wall will be considered inactive if they did not have the opportunity to kill remaining ranged bots, which is quite frequent considering everyone goes out at the end of waves. Are we to say "don't help them, save those bots or they'll be inactive?" Are we to then presume that everyone would coordinate and follow these directives?
(11-01-2016, 05:41 PM)Sargent Q link Wrote: There is no reasonable excuse to not do anything in the amount of time it takes the game to count you as AFK. NONE. Only time where it MIGHT get thin is the waves that you HAVE to repair shields if you hope to not die during it.Again, you are the first and only person to bring up AFKing. The root issue is considering active and contributing players as inactive as an unintended consequence.
Either way, the aforementioned posts are not excuses, these are reasons and sequences of events. The following has happened multiple times:
A shielder dies on some wave between 17-19
Wave 19 is cleaned up
Tome is used for wave 20, without the full preparation timer left
There is not enough time to repair the shield before the wave reaches the shield wall
Said shielder doesn't get XP for wave 20
Said shielder starts slashing between shielding
Said shielder dies and the wave breaches through
Everything but Odin is cleaned up
Tome happens
There is no "wait for all the resurrected players to use a health or anvil prop"
Odin dies, and said players do not receive XP
Re: Reset inactivity timer when an attack is blocked - Fury - 11-01-2016
I am a shielding main, having both an rg and a pavise. I have NO trouble at all with exp because i move out and help clean up ranged at the end of waves. There is no problem whatsoever with being active as a shielder. Shielders do not equal barricades. If you can be replaced with a simple cade and the results are just as good I dont believe your job as a shielder is being done effectively. And as for healing its as simple as just swapping roles with someone every other wave or so. Although healing for all waves is useful it most certainly isn't a requirement and the activity timer could be negated all together just by swapping every round or so with a friend so you can go kill nords as well
Re: Reset inactivity timer when an attack is blocked - Malong - 11-01-2016
(11-01-2016, 06:06 PM)Aggro link Wrote: I am a shielding main. Having both an rg and a pavise. I have NO trouble at all with exp because i move out and help clean up ranged at the end of waves. There is no problem whatsoever with being active as a shielder.And when you're dead and only resurrected for the start of the boss wave? I feel you did not read the thread.
(11-01-2016, 06:06 PM)Aggro link Wrote: Shielders do not equal barricades. If you can be replaced with a simple cade and the results are just as good I dont believe your job as a shielder is being done effectively.Nobody typed anything of the sort.
(11-01-2016, 06:06 PM)Aggro link Wrote: And as for healing its as simple as just swapping roles with someone every other wave or so. Although healing for all waves is useful it most certainly isn't a requirement and the activity timer could be negated all together just by swapping every round or so with a friend so you can go kill nords as wellAnd the very frequent cases that there are fewer slashers than shielders, or slashers are not shield classes? Or the very simple math that most of the time, multiple shielders are needed, while only one healer is needed, and round robin switching means that at one wave, there's high potential for someone to be considered as not contributing?