(22-12-2019, 06:43 PM)Woody Wrote:

(22-12-2019, 06:24 PM)Forward Wrote:

(22-12-2019, 05:53 PM)Woody Wrote:

(22-12-2019, 04:47 PM)Forward Wrote: We all can agree that people goal in this game is maximizing loot and minimizing time and effort. That would be objective definition for best strategy therefore best classes suitable for that strategy would be objectively best overall.

And when you're including high or low class gear price (as pros or cons) its already defining good/bad classes. Cheap class gear rather tells you about class being inefficient at battlefield, and vise versa.

Really? Ok, I'll go there.

Playing as Sentry so a "not suitable class" with 300+ ping I had just about the same amount of kills as you playing as Mp with the daggers you like so much. Objectively everyone below me in kills was "bad" (in this a run). This could include everyone on that run as if I did have good ping I would have had almost doubled my kills going from how slow ping makes bows etc... 

Out of the 2 options here what it is?

Is my skill that much greater than yours I can play a "not suitable class" with 300+ ping and get just about as much kills as you. 
or
Classes don't affect gameplay as much as you make out.

What I think matters the most in terms of "maximizing loot and minimizing time" is 

In order

1. Your attitude (not being afk etc...) 
   
2. The map
   
3. Your game sense (understanding when and when not to peek for example) 
   
4. The gear your have
   
5. The class you are
   

Playing for "maximizing loot and minimizing time" is subjective... You have no evidence everyone does this to this extreme. People like myself are will to play classes that have tools or have experiences other you claim to be the only ones we need simply don't offer. My attitude + game sense and I guess gear to some point impacted my kill count or usefulness so much more than the class it self to the point I could play any tr4 and probably got more kills than 1/4 maybe even 1/2 of that team we just had. 

I and others would rather play a class we find enjoyable so we can be the most effective in terms of attitude we bring to the run. Not everyone feels my way or your way it's subjective... I like the idea of Sentry but do I think its the most suitable class for what I just did? No. I don't care about being that 100% of "maximizing loot" what matters to me is I enjoyed using my Pride and using my H-bow more than if I just played my Warden with Tempest. 
 

I was inventing and writing an answer here while playing that run, which was negatively affecting my performance I have to admit. Though on some maps there might be just not enough peeking spots for ranged waves and such, so flat kills count is not that usable to measure neither player neither class performance.

Playing Sentry instead of Warden makes no sense, we're losing team DPS when you do that.

If you don't agree with 'max loot/min time' or other DPS/kill-based criteria, gear price might be class performance metric, yes.

Sounds like excuses to me. We're losing team DPS when you semi afk like that.

See how this works... you don't even put in 100%...

Price can have nothing to do with stats. Say when items have the same stats but different models or textures. Hell remember when vgs was the most expensive thing even tho we had better 2hs.

Price matters a lot to the players unlike myself that can't afford the best of the best of what they want. Say for the fact elegy has been sold for as little as 3m and as much as 30... Most of the Reds you are thinking about fluctuate a lot more than let's say legacy given active player numbers of that hero can double in a month quite easily.

(22-12-2019, 07:03 PM)Forward Wrote:

(22-12-2019, 06:43 PM)Woody Wrote:

(22-12-2019, 06:24 PM)Forward Wrote:

(22-12-2019, 05:53 PM)Woody Wrote:

(22-12-2019, 04:47 PM)Forward Wrote: We all can agree that people goal in this game is maximizing loot and minimizing time and effort. That would be objective definition for best strategy therefore best classes suitable for that strategy would be objectively best overall.

And when you're including high or low class gear price (as pros or cons) its already defining good/bad classes. Cheap class gear rather tells you about class being inefficient at battlefield, and vise versa.

Really? Ok, I'll go there.

Playing as Sentry so a "not suitable class" with 300+ ping I had just about the same amount of kills as you playing as Mp with the daggers you like so much. Objectively everyone below me in kills was "bad" (in this a run). This could include everyone on that run as if I did have good ping I would have had almost doubled my kills going from how slow ping makes bows etc... 

Out of the 2 options here what it is?

Is my skill that much greater than yours I can play a "not suitable class" with 300+ ping and get just about as much kills as you. 
or
Classes don't affect gameplay as much as you make out.

What I think matters the most in terms of "maximizing loot and minimizing time" is 

In order

1. Your attitude (not being afk etc...) 
   
2. The map
   
3. Your game sense (understanding when and when not to peek for example) 
   
4. The gear your have
   
5. The class you are
   

Playing for "maximizing loot and minimizing time" is subjective... You have no evidence everyone does this to this extreme. People like myself are will to play classes that have tools or have experiences other you claim to be the only ones we need simply don't offer. My attitude + game sense and I guess gear to some point impacted my kill count or usefulness so much more than the class it self to the point I could play any tr4 and probably got more kills than 1/4 maybe even 1/2 of that team we just had. 

I and others would rather play a class we find enjoyable so we can be the most effective in terms of attitude we bring to the run. Not everyone feels my way or your way it's subjective... I like the idea of Sentry but do I think its the most suitable class for what I just did? No. I don't care about being that 100% of "maximizing loot" what matters to me is I enjoyed using my Pride and using my H-bow more than if I just played my Warden with Tempest. 
 

I was inventing and writing an answer here while playing that run, which was negatively affecting my performance I have to admit. Though on some maps there might be just not enough peeking spots for ranged waves and such, so flat kills count is not that usable to measure neither player neither class performance.

Playing Sentry instead of Warden makes no sense, we're losing team DPS when you do that.

If you don't agree with 'max loot/min time' or other DPS/kill-based criteria, gear price might be class performance metric, yes.

Sounds like excuses to me. We're losing team DPS when you semi afk like that.

See how this works... you don't even put in 100%...

Price can have nothing to do with stats. Say when items have the same stats but different models or textures. Hell remember when vgs was the most expensive thing even tho we had better 2hs.

Price matters a lot to the players unlike myself that can't afford the best of the best of what they want. Say for the fact elegy has been sold for as little as 3m and as much as 30... Most of the Reds you are thinking about fluctuate a lot more than let's say legacy given active player numbers of that hero can double in a month quite easily.

AFK/Semi-AFK, whatever. The fast is: class DPS is objective criteria, therefore Warden class is better then Sentry class. Same way as ranged classes are better then melee classes. If some people enjoy playing melee is doesn't make these classes better, it just allows you to sell them let's say Legacy with better profits. Maybe they like to play Cavalry or Normal or whatever.

(22-12-2019, 07:44 PM)Kriegstofu Wrote:

(22-12-2019, 07:03 PM)Forward Wrote:

(22-12-2019, 06:43 PM)Woody Wrote:

(22-12-2019, 06:24 PM)Forward Wrote:

(22-12-2019, 05:53 PM)Woody Wrote: Really? Ok, I'll go there.

Playing as Sentry so a "not suitable class" with 300+ ping I had just about the same amount of kills as you playing as Mp with the daggers you like so much. Objectively everyone below me in kills was "bad" (in this a run). This could include everyone on that run as if I did have good ping I would have had almost doubled my kills going from how slow ping makes bows etc... 

Out of the 2 options here what it is?

Is my skill that much greater than yours I can play a "not suitable class" with 300+ ping and get just about as much kills as you. 
or
Classes don't affect gameplay as much as you make out.

What I think matters the most in terms of "maximizing loot and minimizing time" is 

In order

1. Your attitude (not being afk etc...) 
   
2. The map
   
3. Your game sense (understanding when and when not to peek for example) 
   
4. The gear your have
   
5. The class you are
   

Playing for "maximizing loot and minimizing time" is subjective... You have no evidence everyone does this to this extreme. People like myself are will to play classes that have tools or have experiences other you claim to be the only ones we need simply don't offer. My attitude + game sense and I guess gear to some point impacted my kill count or usefulness so much more than the class it self to the point I could play any tr4 and probably got more kills than 1/4 maybe even 1/2 of that team we just had. 

I and others would rather play a class we find enjoyable so we can be the most effective in terms of attitude we bring to the run. Not everyone feels my way or your way it's subjective... I like the idea of Sentry but do I think its the most suitable class for what I just did? No. I don't care about being that 100% of "maximizing loot" what matters to me is I enjoyed using my Pride and using my H-bow more than if I just played my Warden with Tempest. 
 

I was inventing and writing an answer here while playing that run, which was negatively affecting my performance I have to admit. Though on some maps there might be just not enough peeking spots for ranged waves and such, so flat kills count is not that usable to measure neither player neither class performance.

Playing Sentry instead of Warden makes no sense, we're losing team DPS when you do that.

If you don't agree with 'max loot/min time' or other DPS/kill-based criteria, gear price might be class performance metric, yes.

Sounds like excuses to me. We're losing team DPS when you semi afk like that.

See how this works... you don't even put in 100%...

Price can have nothing to do with stats. Say when items have the same stats but different models or textures. Hell remember when vgs was the most expensive thing even tho we had better 2hs.

Price matters a lot to the players unlike myself that can't afford the best of the best of what they want. Say for the fact elegy has been sold for as little as 3m and as much as 30... Most of the Reds you are thinking about fluctuate a lot more than let's say legacy given active player numbers of that hero can double in a month quite easily.

AFK/Semi-AFK, whatever. The fast is: class DPS is objective criteria, therefore Warden class is better then Sentry class. Same way as ranged classes are better then melee classes. If some people enjoy playing melee is doesn't make these classes better, it just allows you to sell them let's say Legacy with better profits. Maybe they like to play Cavalry or Normal or whatever.

so considering the best classes can get rather repetive to play since you only excel in 1 task you might get bored more easily compared to classes with more than one use.

wardens suck in melee or shielding so they only do ple ket ket ket

pavise can shield, snipe and is quite good with melee

so playing with a pavise you are less likely to bore out and thus be more efficient because you don't lose attention that fast as if you would just do one task.

(22-12-2019, 08:40 PM)Fendi Wrote: ranger is good because only cheap archer class to get top tier gear xoxoxo

(22-12-2019, 08:12 PM)Forward Wrote:

(22-12-2019, 07:44 PM)Kriegstofu Wrote:

(22-12-2019, 07:03 PM)Forward Wrote:

(22-12-2019, 06:43 PM)Woody Wrote:

(22-12-2019, 06:24 PM)Forward Wrote: I was inventing and writing an answer here while playing that run, which was negatively affecting my performance I have to admit. Though on some maps there might be just not enough peeking spots for ranged waves and such, so flat kills count is not that usable to measure neither player neither class performance.

Playing Sentry instead of Warden makes no sense, we're losing team DPS when you do that.

If you don't agree with 'max loot/min time' or other DPS/kill-based criteria, gear price might be class performance metric, yes.

Sounds like excuses to me. We're losing team DPS when you semi afk like that.

See how this works... you don't even put in 100%...

Price can have nothing to do with stats. Say when items have the same stats but different models or textures. Hell remember when vgs was the most expensive thing even tho we had better 2hs.

Price matters a lot to the players unlike myself that can't afford the best of the best of what they want. Say for the fact elegy has been sold for as little as 3m and as much as 30... Most of the Reds you are thinking about fluctuate a lot more than let's say legacy given active player numbers of that hero can double in a month quite easily.

AFK/Semi-AFK, whatever. The fast is: class DPS is objective criteria, therefore Warden class is better then Sentry class. Same way as ranged classes are better then melee classes. If some people enjoy playing melee is doesn't make these classes better, it just allows you to sell them let's say Legacy with better profits. Maybe they like to play Cavalry or Normal or whatever.

so considering the best classes can get rather repetive to play since you only excel in 1 task you might get bored more easily compared to classes with more than one use.

wardens suck in melee or shielding so they only do ple ket ket ket

pavise can shield, snipe and is quite good with melee

so playing with a pavise you are less likely to bore out and thus be more efficient because you don't lose attention that fast as if you would just do one task.

It won't be repetitive if you will have 16 classes like Woody xD

(23-12-2019, 04:04 AM)Woody Wrote:

(22-12-2019, 08:12 PM)Forward Wrote:

(22-12-2019, 07:44 PM)Kriegstofu Wrote:

(22-12-2019, 07:03 PM)Forward Wrote:

(22-12-2019, 06:43 PM)Woody Wrote: Sounds like excuses to me. We're losing team DPS when you semi afk like that.

See how this works... you don't even put in 100%...

Price can have nothing to do with stats. Say when items have the same stats but different models or textures. Hell remember when vgs was the most expensive thing even tho we had better 2hs.

Price matters a lot to the players unlike myself that can't afford the best of the best of what they want. Say for the fact elegy has been sold for as little as 3m and as much as 30... Most of the Reds you are thinking about fluctuate a lot more than let's say legacy given active player numbers of that hero can double in a month quite easily.

AFK/Semi-AFK, whatever. The fast is: class DPS is objective criteria, therefore Warden class is better then Sentry class. Same way as ranged classes are better then melee classes. If some people enjoy playing melee is doesn't make these classes better, it just allows you to sell them let's say Legacy with better profits. Maybe they like to play Cavalry or Normal or whatever.

so considering the best classes can get rather repetive to play since you only excel in 1 task you might get bored more easily compared to classes with more than one use.

wardens suck in melee or shielding so they only do ple ket ket ket

pavise can shield, snipe and is quite good with melee

so playing with a pavise you are less likely to bore out and thus be more efficient because you don't lose attention that fast as if you would just do one task.

It won't be repetitive if you will have 16 classes like Woody xD

With having almost 9k hours in Ni it got repetitive long ago. 

This is a guess but I wouldn't be surprised if there is a correlation between the amount of hours you have and the amount of heroes you have tried. Saying this I'm talking about the bigger picture over 1k hours and respec would count.

With the respec I think I've done it would put me at 19-20 heroes ish.

For someone like Faravin even tho his all about the "100%" on events his had some strange heroes going by your standards.

(24-12-2019, 04:15 AM)Woody Wrote: The poll to me is the most interesting part of this thread other than Malong's list.