+- NordInvasion Forum (https://forum.nordinvasion.com)
+-- Forum: Discussions (https://forum.nordinvasion.com/forumdisplay.php?fid=7)
+--- Forum: Community Projects (https://forum.nordinvasion.com/forumdisplay.php?fid=19)
+---- Forum: Feature Requests (https://forum.nordinvasion.com/forumdisplay.php?fid=77)
+---- Thread: Pikeman melee rebalance proposal. (/showthread.php?tid=2517)
Pages:
1
2
Pikeman melee rebalance proposal. - Lanseril - 08-06-2012
At this point, most players would agree that skirmishers have rather underwhelming melee damage, especially at the pikeman tier (Tier 4). Using the raw damage rate methodology explained in my NI 0.4.2 Ranged Damage Comparison, here is an illustration of exactly how bad pikeman damage currently is:
![[Image: X58kD.png]](https://i.imgur.com/X58kD.png)
As you can see, pikemen even get beat out by sharpshooters (whose melee capabilities have been vastly underappreciated) in terms of raw damage rate, and suffers far worse armor than either sharpshooters or commandos to boot. It has been suggested a number of times (for instance, in this thread) to raise pikeman power strike as a solution, but I have a different proposal to make pikemen melee more competitive.
![[+]](/images/collapse_collapsed.png "[+]")
CalculationsPikeman Melee Rebalance Proposal for NI 0.4.3:
1. Move the power strike gained by crossbowmen at Tier 1 to Tier 2.
2. Increase polearm proficiency gained by skirmishers by 10 per tier.
The following chart illustrates the combined results of these changes:
![[Image: iHpG8.png]](https://i.imgur.com/iHpG8.png)
As you can see, under this proposal pikemen now enjoy a lead over sharpshooters and one-handed commandos, and are competitive with two-handed commandos without overshadowing them.
An explanation for each part of this proposal:
1) Move the power strike gained by crossbowmen at Tier 1 to Tier 2.
Currently the Commando/Crossbowman/Militia build (i.e. the “4/1/1”) is the build that virtually all informed players choose, because it provides commandos with both maximum damage (8 power strike) and maximum shielding (8 shield skill). This allows commandos with this build to “have it all” without making any tradeoffs. The proposal will change this dynamic with minimal disruption elsewhere, since crossbowmen are already the strongest class at Tier 1 due to how powerful their crossbows are relative to other weapons at that tier. As slashers, pikemen will be more competitive with commandos once commandos can no longer reach power strike 8, and commandos can choose from the following builds, each with tradeoffs (note that all builds will be equal in the 2H slasher role):
- ”Lone Barbarian” (2nd tier Skirmisher): Highest mobility. Good for 2H users to help them maneuver while soloing or running/kiting with small groups.
- ”Shield Waller” (1st tiers Militia + Crossbowman): Highest shield blocking, small 1H proficiency boost, only level 49 required. Good for team players in organized groups and/or houses.
- ”Foot Knight” (2nd tier Heavy Crossbowman): Highest 1H proficiency for best damage and attack speed. Good for regular public server players who like to wade into crowds (especially in normal mode) and kill stuff.
2. Increase polearm proficiency gained by skirmishers by 10 per tier.
Increasing polearm proficiency by 10 points per tier results in a total gain of 40 proficiency at Tier 4. The most obvious possible concern with a change like this is how whether this makes their proficiency too high. Keep in mind, however, that typically polearms are slow weapons already: for example, the Swadian Halberd used in this comparison has a swing speed of 88 compared to speeds of 95 and 101 of the other weapons compared. Also, despite this significant proficiency boost, their proficiency remains reasonably close to those of other classes. To illustrate:
![[Image: VnpCo.png]](https://i.imgur.com/VnpCo.png)
While pikemen will indeed have the highest melee proficiency, they hold a very small lead over commando 1H proficiency (which also feature much faster swinging weapons), and this lead is not reached until Tier 4 and later.
In addition to finally making pikemen melee damage competitive in a slashing role, increasing their proficiency also has a number of additional benefits:
- Improves low-level skirmishers. Currently, skirmishers don’t have proficiencies comparable to other classes until Tier 3. Under the proposal, they’ll reach a comparable proficiency level to other classes at Tier 2.
- Allows polearm benefits to be applied more liberally. Polestun is a significant advantage with polearms, and a faster swing speed makes this a more compelling reason to use pikemen slashers. It also allows them to use their reach and swingthrough to nab annoying enemies like Valkyries and Jotnes more effectively.
- Makes the skirmisher class feel faster and more enjoyable to play. Trying to skirmish using the fastest class while attacking with the slowest melee attack speed is a strange disconnect. This helps make playing pikemen a less disconcerting and more dynamic experience.
Re: Pikeman melee rebalance proposal. - Hypernoma - 08-06-2012
At present, absolutely not. Pikemen are far too fast to have such a damage increase. Any proposals made will have to account for a speed reduction if you wish damage increase.
Re: Pikeman melee rebalance proposal. - Kwal - 08-06-2012
Something should be done in my opinion to make them more at place though. Not damage increase/reduction or speed increase/reduction.
Re: Pikeman melee rebalance proposal. - Huscarlton Banks - 08-06-2012
I'm not sure your calculations are a reliable way to judge performance based on the following:
1) Most of your comparisons are based on a craftable vs. a legendary, and/or ignore reach. One handed weapons are laughable in hard mode for this reason, and the difference between the Butcher (effective overhead reach of 110) and the Swadian Halberd (effective overhead reach of 155) is simply immense.
2) You use "Raw Damage Rate" as a way of representing effectiveness, yet I can tell you right away that if you made the same calculations with an Aurora Blade (Still much more expensive/rarer than Swadian Halberd), the damage output will be about equal with the numbers favoring the Swadian Halberd, yet the Aurora Blade will still kill much more quickly due to the difference in attack times, and the abundance of enemies that die in the same number of hits.
3) Most of the problems that make Pikeman an unattractive class are not due to raw DPS, they are due to:
I) Awkward swinging animations
II) Prevalence of projectile threat, which is already lethal to Commando Slashers who have much higher armor
III) Both being inflexible and lacking a useful, unique role in shield walls at the same time
IV) Frontloading their damage which makes pikemen much less effective against weaker enemies, while in theory making them more effective against heavier armor. However, since they still do cut damage, they still do piddly squat damage to heavier armor in comparison to Snipers or Sharpshooters.
V) Not looking anywhere near as cool as Commandos
VI) In general, being designed for kiting in a mod that discourages kiting as a tactic
I would suggest:
1) Messing with the animations or active swing time so that you don't lolbackswing with polearm overheads and/or hit walls/deployables that are slightly to your left.
2) Implementing overhead stab that can go over shielders for pike-type polearms, giving them a unique spot in the shield wall which also makes them safe® against ranged spam.
3) Increase swing speed, decrease damage, with overall dps remaining the same, or slightly higher
4) Adding a helmet that gives you sunglasses and a cigar
4) Decrease athletics and increase armor/pstrike/pthrow as a last resort after doing the above, since we're not supposed to kite anyway
Comments on your suggestions:
1) Would do nothing, my Commando was specced as a Skirmisher for a while for the athletics, and killed in the same number of hits as he does now. The only difference I actually see is in shielding. As for the Foot Knight I'm just going to pretend that you were kidding about that being a viable level 52 build for anyone who isn't just screwing around in normal.
2) It seems to make more sense to keep the proficiencies about the same as 2H Commando and just adjust weapon speed instead, so that it's less of a pain in the ass to compare weapons.
Re: Pikeman melee rebalance proposal. - Senni - 08-06-2012
I would like to see overhead stabs with longer more powerful pikes (proper stabbing pikes
).
Re: Pikeman melee rebalance proposal. - The Wolf - 08-06-2012
I have to say, it's VERY detailed and everybody can see that you have put your work in this. Gongrats for that.
I can't really say what i think about it though; My main character is only a sergeant, and i haven't got a pikeman yet.
Re: Pikeman melee rebalance proposal. - BigBird - 09-06-2012
(08-06-2012, 01:02 PM)Hypernoma link Wrote:At present, absolutely not. Pikemen are far too fast to have such a damage increase. Any proposals made will have to account for a speed reduction if you wish damage increase.
I propose that pikeman be able to only move at half speed, but in return get 2x as much damage. As I've pointed out in my other threads the speed is no help at all in teamplay when your standing still. I understand you don't want them soloing easier but atm it looks like thats all a pikeman can do. But soloing isn't going to get you far in hardmode.
Re: Pikeman melee rebalance proposal. - Barristan - 09-06-2012
I personally think that their javelin throwing and damage dealing should be specialized so as to make the class more useful. Perhaps giving javelins a sheild shredding buff (kind of how the legionary pila were used) and their overhead attacks a chance at knockdown. Viewing crossbow and skirmisher classes in opposition to the other classes only really focuses on the redistribution of roles that already exist. Rather new roles should be invented. The skirmisher should be given jobs that no one else can do and that presently do not exist (like anti-shield and or knockdown specialist).
Re: Pikeman melee rebalance proposal. - Jarold - 09-06-2012
(09-06-2012, 02:38 AM)Barristan link Wrote:I personally think that their javelin throwing and damage dealing should be specialized so as to make the class more useful. Perhaps giving javelins a sheild shredding buff (kind of how the legionary pila were used) and their overhead attacks a chance at knockdown. Viewing crossbow and skirmisher classes in opposition to the other classes only really focuses on the redistribution of roles that already exist. Rather new roles should be invented. The skirmisher should be given jobs that no one else can do and that presently do not exist (like anti-shield and or knockdown specialist).my skirmisher is only tier 3 and i really only use my commando in hard/normal mode but this sounds really good. We need diversity.
Re: Pikeman melee rebalance proposal. - Ryu - 09-06-2012
Sorry if i didnt read, miss something etc. before posting and sorry in advance if i'm saying too much than i should, Just know that i love all of you guys alot
. (and also sorry for my bad English skills )Now, i tried to explain current pikeman's lack of usefulness at every corner of this forum as much as i can since i love playing as one. Now let me try it one more time here
. -As a pikeman i can tell you that the speed of this class is not that much of a plus for pikemen, because the "lone barbarian" can nearly run as fast as a pikeman (my main char. is commando+half skirmisher) if he wears lighter armors. But pikeman cant wear shit, thats a simple fact... And please dont get that as "commandos needs a nerf" because they really dont, but pikeman should run faster; although i wonder where they will run lol (i'll come to that later).
-Thowing accuracy of pikeman is very very disturbing, and since nearly every nord out there have a shield you "have to" be close to your target to hit where you actually aim for. Its not a problem if you are throwing in mass of nords at front of a shield wall, but it would be fun to be able to hit where you actually aim for ingame especially if you are a master skirmisher...
-Reach of Pikeman may be seen as a plus but since commandos also have nice weapons for that reach, pikeman here again have no benefit over commandos. Overhead attack you say? Dont forget if you are hitting exactly behind of a shielder you loose some of that range too.
-Again about throwing, skirmishers dont have enough of throwing weapons in 1 slot at their current conditions. Let me explain a bit; You hit shields, you miss your target most of the time or cant hit where you actually aim for, you are not doing great damage even when you hit. So even if i use 3 slots of mine with full of throwing weapons(by reloading supply slots too if you want to have a main weapon lol), i can kill about what, 5-10 nords with all of those? (in hard mode ofcourse but i'm lv52 so...). One of the suggestions i read here is also a good one, pikeman only throwing weapons can have "bonus against shields" speciality.
-Since i have to use my throwing weps at close-medium range, if i miss, if the nord catch my jav. magicly where he shouldnt, or even if i hit and nord doesnt die; i have to switch to my polearm instantly but that ends %50+ of the time me getting hit at least once. Now, since pikeman's lack of armors, that hit probably is the end for me...
-Now as we know that skirmishers have to be mobile, fast runner class. Can someone please explain to me that "Where the hell skirmisher will run??!" As the latest map updates (please no hard feelings, i just feel useless as pikeman at all of those maps right now) NI is becoming more and more of a "lets build a nest at most suitable tight corner and wait+pray that the nord mass dont get pass our fragile walls"... So as a skirmisher where do i use my speed? For running in (25m^2) to enjoy myself and say something like "Dude see how fast i can run, Hell YEAH!!!". I know we have no cavalry, but i still think we need big, open maps to enjoy and taste something different than what we have now. The old overgrown map was that needed blood for me, it tasted really different while it lasted and i enjoyed kiting there(yeah even with my commando); running with archers, protecting them or even sacrificing to buy them a bit more time so they can manage what i couldnt at our sacred war lol. Now its again building a nest there like the rest
.------------------------------
So here are my suggestions to balance the shit out of it. Note that i'll assume that we wont have any more open maps where we can kite anymore (not that Pikeman can kite that well like arhers lol).
--- Balancing Commando and Pikeman to make them equal (by not nerfing but maybe changing the Commando just a little). How;
- Commandos are using 2handed weapons and 1handed+shields. Take every shield skills of Pikeman away (yeah "300" funs might not like that idea but please wait for the next suggestion lol) and (maybe) add some more into Commando class. So while Commandos can use 2handed swords and become the masters of shield using; Pikeman can use polearms and throwing weapons. Thats it, if you want to use shields you pick Commando, if you want to use throwing weapons you pick Pikeman-skirmisher.
- Let Pikemen to use as good armors or the same armors as Commandos. That way it will all come down to what you want to pick i mentioned above, shields or throwing weapons.
- When its about being slashers, make Commando weapons(2harders) fast with at most medium range, and make Pikeman weapons more damaging(to equal damage over time because of the weapon speed) with medium-long range and slow-medium speed. Dont bend this rule maybe even with legendaries, if people want range in melee Pikeman must come to their mind, not some special Commando legendary weapon. So make the most of the reach of 2hander at most, maybe around 140. Give all 140+ range to Pikemen. (if i know that one correct, please remember that because of the holding points of polearms, 140 reach on 2hander can hit further than a polearm of the same reach stat, so add this into calculation when deciding the shortest range of Skirmishers).
-Dont let commandos to use any kind of polearm no matter what(Sun Pike?), make them Pikeman only weapons. If you can, dont even let them to pick them from the ground. Not only commandos, no one exept Pikeman could use polearms.
-Dont worry too much about the speed of Pikeman. Why? Because if you let them have good-equal armors as commandos, weight will balance that out for you. Yeah pikeman can be a bit quicker than commandos, so what? Remember that because of lack of shields, Pikeman is always open for ranged attacks. That way, Pikeman cant shield themselves from ranged attacks but they can dodge better than Commandos, I say that makes them even.
- I know some of the suggestions i made here can make some commandos unhappy(probably 140 reach at most one). But we must face that right now half of our numbers are all Commandos(infantry) while the rest is from other classes. Remember that we must make people to choose what they want; not them to pick "the best" class(which is commando between these two). Yes, shorten the reach but while doing it, make those long 2handers faster, or give them some special abilities like "bonus against shields", "usable as 1handed/2handed". So those commandos can still be happy with their cool weapons
. But if they want long reach in melee, it-must-be-Pikeman!------------------------------
OR;
Give us more open maps where we can kite while giving Pikeman more speed, more accuracy with throwing and maybe "shield damager" ability. I prefer this one(since it was shorter to write lol), but if we wont be allowed to run freely, suggestions i did by balancing Commando and Pikeman is the only way to make Skirmisher a "choice".
And; read the all of it, its from a long time Pikeman who is also a Commando fanatic dude...
-----
Btw Wow Lanseril great work i say.