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+---- Thread: A better meta (/showthread.php?tid=74125)
A better meta - DR. - 03-03-2020
This topic will be talking about what to maybe do In NI2 for a meta but nothing Is stopping this Idea being implemented Into NI1. Be a lot of work but I'm just suggesting an Idea nothing more.
To start, how do you balance items? This question seems straightforward however I want to get to the root of the question who do you balance around. Surprisingly I've seen many different answers to this question over the years. The answer for a competitive game is you balance around the best players (mostly). I would think Ni can be played to the point we know when we see a "pro" vs a "noob". You balance around pro because they know how to break the game but you need to still make some compromises to noobs because most people are not pros. I think heroes/classes should work the same way.
Should classes be balanced around how easy they are to use? To answer this question using my opinion It would be. The hardest classes to master In my eyes should be “the best classes”. Most people will be better off with an easier to use class but It gives a goal In player skill people can work towards If they want.
So on that topic what makes a class hard to master? Well would be many things but the main one that affects Ni is the risk value. How risky is it to play a class like Warden on Rag vs playing a class like Zwei? I think most if not all people would agree on this. Ranged classes can do both jobs as you can play like a melee class with a ranged weapon. Zwei can't play as safe as Warden but Warden can be just about as aggressive as Zwei.
In most meta idea’s melee weapons can't really make ranged weapons obsolete given they will always have more range, however… The meta now is ranged classes have and had made melee classes obsolete. 1 way makes the other obsolete and the other just means 1 group of classes clearly better in a certain scenario.
The one thing melee classes have In terms of damage atm Is speed. Having more speed Is great when you can already 1-2 shot the bot but there is a point of diminishing return…. My upgraded Pride, for example, is really nice for normal and some hard bots but when you need to hit a bot 4-7 times It gives more of a reason not to play that class.
If you can't kill a bot fast enough It has a bigger chance hitting you, in turn, possibly killing you. If you are a melee class you have a lot fewer places to hide when things go wrong when playing your role. A shield can only help 50% of you and that's if your class has a shield. Ranged can always go back even more or just move a few steps left or right to be behind cover. Ranged classes become better because they are just more consistent damage while being just as rewarding at times. The risk of playing a melee class is simply not worth it in a lot of cases even more so rag. From that classes with no ranged skill In my mind would be considered the hardest classes to master In this meta of upgraded Def not lasting 5secs on some waves.
The meta now is… Ranged classes have and had made a lot of melee classes obsolete. So I simply ask to think of a meta where melee does higher damage per second than ranged. That was very vague but I'm asking for you to think of a meta that classes like Zwei can out damage Mp given he lands the hits and doesn't get killed. Zwei can't make Mp obsolete but Mp can to Zwei. Obviously I'm not talking about the extreme here as then yes no shit.
It would be interesting to see how long It takes for each class to kill Prince and Odin. I would guess melee players would have the advantage on Prince but for Odin, I think It would be a lot closer. It's not the best test given I don't need to explain how risky fighting Odin or Prince In melee Is but It would show maybe some outlines on what could change. Heroes can be made for one thing as I expect “dead shot” to just win on Odin but this thread is talking about the meta. Should it be a clear winner and who should come after it? Should It be other ranged classes or melee classes? ...In before Hoplite takes the gold over Cm lol.
To summarize one of the biggest problems I think Ni has would be flight speed or reach in general. I find It's not balanced at a hero and a class level as hopefully, you understand now. I will be talking more than just “ranged vs melee” now. I should have said this soon but this is coming from someone that plays with 200-400 ping. I could be completely wrong on some topics here so please show objectivity when making a post as It's possible I could have the opposite experience. Working with that much ping classes can and do stand out to be clearly to be better than others. Sniper, In general, is a joke compared to xbow on rag but I still have a lot of time on all my heroes on Au servers so forcefully I'm not that out of touch.
As of right now my Rups/Daggers feel comparable In most cases to Tempest with Zephyr (don't have Typhoon). Both have things they do better sure but I can't clearly say bows make up for having less armour and a lot less skill In melee. The only thing In my eyes Sniper has on Pikeman is the flight speed and the normal speed however we have throwing spears In most cases that have more than enough flight speed and at times having less flight speed can help with getting over cades… On that topic, Daggers are just faster than bows making them almost clearly better at times… Overall what benefits does Warden/Sniper have over Mp/Pikeman on real maps and real gameplay?
If Sniper and Pikeman had the same armour values would Sniper be considered Op? I don't think so. It is close atm with Efs being at 58 and Lev at 54 so It wouldn't be a big change. Altho no idea why Leather Overmail Is 70 and G Bear is 64. Should Ranger and Halb have the same armour values? Possibly?
If you don't want them to have the same armour values I think I like the Idea Sniper just is better at ranged but is more of a glass cannon given It already is that. It is possible throwing spears could have more damage and daggers could be faster the Bows. Bows could be a midpoint but they should be almost clearly better give they will have no apparent downside. I don't want bows making throwing obsolete. I want throwing to be clearly better at one thing but bows to be an all rounder that's almost clearly better. I would think Tempest/Typhoon would just be better than both Rups and Daggers for It being 2 Items and not 1 (+Zephyr).
If you do compare the other 2 classes Inf and Xbow… How much of a benefit do you get In other areas If Infantry range maxes out at 166? Mind you that's a crafted 2h... best red would be Dur at 134 or whatever. Compare this with the Xbow theoretical range when using an Eagle xbow would be In the 10000s… So having the ability to put yourself behind cover and still do big damage Is a massive reason not to pick any pure melee class atm. For taking away so much range we get ok melee skill which in a lot of cases can't out damage xbow on higher armoured bots… Inf did get basic shield skill and better armour but those are basic tools required for such a trade of having no ranged skill. We got the risk but was the reward worth It? I don't think so.
For how good the main 4 classes should be well I think xbow is in a good place. It has clear advantages over the other 3 classes and still has negative stuff like it being slow and not good at melee. I think pikeman would be close however part of me thinks it's polearm skill is possible to good at least on Mp.
I can't see any good reason for why Sniper at a basic level has to be the class with the lowest armour in its current form. There are inherent benefits to picking Pikeman over Sniper that being...
-Spears can penetrate shields
-More armour
-Better melee skill
-Being able to jump/move while throwing (well)
-Being able to have more different types of items on you
-A bigger range of weapons to pick from in ranged and melee
What does Sniper really have other than a bit more ranged? I guess you could say ammo but that isn't a short term benefit when you can just refill at no cost on pikeman. I guess you also have accuracy but Is not much of a positive when daggers are just about pinpoint and spears and almost as good. I would buff sniper in general to have the same armour value as a pikeman. The argument for bows having better flight speed can make up for pikeman having good melee skill and more armour but in practice, none uses that extra range on most maps and If you do It's not that big of a jump. Either buff the armour or melee or make it more of a glass cannon in general.
Inf is very hard to balance however I ask you to think broadly.
It either needs to...
(A) Be more consistent In terms of how risky it currently is to play commando in rag/hard/and even on normal.
or
(B) Have the possibility to out damage any class on any mode but in turn, has the greatest risk which it has already.
I'm not sure what's the best option for inf in general as It could simply be a mix of both A and B but Zwei, Leg would be (B) and Jugg, RG would be (A) at least In terms of heroes.
RE: A better meta - Fendi - 03-03-2020
This is way too long to read.
Skipping to the bottom, Inf is better suited to Normal/hard/cav. If you think of how many kills a Zwei can get on normal vs a Warden who has a longer time between shots - inf is easily superior.
All classes have their uses and places where they are good. Just because one isn't good at rag doesn't mean to say the whole class is shit.
At this point woody you are just posting weekly essays trying to either get classes removed or the whole class system over-ruled. (At what point does the become post-farming) I'm pretty sure the devs of NI2 will have a system in mind already as this is pretty much the starting point for the mod.
RE: A better meta - DR. - 03-03-2020
(03-03-2020, 06:53 AM)Fendi Wrote: This is way too long to read.
Then don't read It and don't comment on it.
RE: A better meta - Kriegstofu - 03-03-2020
Melee Classes just need an OP damage boost imho. Inf Heroes even in Full Legendary Gear (Except Legio) Can't get Past Wave 9 Hard (alone). Obviously NI is a team based game so inf is good for shielding/slashing. Yet we have Ranged being able to get up to wave 15 hard easily (Xbow, Pike, Archer)
So if Melee based Heroes were to recieve a huge damage boost to be able to kill For Example Einherjar Rangers in 1-2 Hits instead of the 3-5 depending on the Speed Bonus applied. Juggernauts W9 are really hard to kill for Melee based classes, needing more than 6 hits generally maybe even 10, while most ranged need 2 headshots to eliminate one.
An interesting thing is Marauder, as its P weapon are able to kill Bots way faster than all these legendary cut weapons, also because it has the lightest armor in game (body armor 1 weight,) which makes it not have any malus in melee damage (All Armor Weight (1) above 10 reduces melee damage by 1%)
RE: A better meta - DR. - 03-03-2020
(03-03-2020, 08:13 AM)Kriegstofu Wrote: Inf Heroes even in Full Legendary Gear (Except Legio) Can't get Past Wave 9 Hard (alone).
Kiting is not the full problem as I don't expect after a buff to be able to solo Hard on my Jugg. With my Jugg, I've got to wave 11 then got killed in a matter of seconds because the jump in damage you take is so big. You can kite with Inf but its a lot slower and you have a higher risk of getting killed by any bot not just ranged.
(03-03-2020, 08:13 AM)Kriegstofu Wrote: An interesting thing is Marauder, as its P weapon are able to kill Bots way faster than all these legendary cut weapons, also because it has the lightest armor in game (body armor 1 weight,) which makes it not have any malus in melee damage (All Armor Weight (1) above 10 reduces melee damage by 1%)
From memory the one test posted on the forum, Navel killed Prince faster than Mangler. Cut weapons do have a place In the mod for light armour bots but all classes should have the option to have something other than cut. Sentry does have a stab but that's very situational given you need to be just about exposed to hit the bot. Given you are so low on armour that risk Is not worth the reward when you could just use your bow at far.
I don't need to point out how Avent and Senti have no real option unless you consider Torch but that by design shouldn't be as viable as It is atm or at least they should have a better option.
RE: A better meta - Malong - 03-03-2020
This is overdue
RE: A better meta - Forward - 03-03-2020
Thanks Woody, very interesting read.
How I see it. NI is following M&B meta. NI is a siege defence in a miniature, simplified and cleaned to bare minimum. Native M&B siege defence looks like small shieldwall, couple of slashers and ranged characters rest. If you adapt this to multiplayer you might see some roles are not very funny for PC to fill. Shielders do nothing that means no fun gameplay. Slashers auto-click one button - no fun gameplay. Therefore, only fun gameplay might be achieved in such invasion mod with ranged class. I'm excluding Cavalry invasions, because they have drastically different metas and there are much better M&B mods for it then NI.
So NI2 should have 3 ranged DPS-classes: Archer, Crossbowmen, Peltast
And melee utility class - slasher and shielder hybrid, which might have ability both to corner bots (only real shielder use in NI) to help ranged team to clear faster, and slash if bots are impossible to corner. Shieldwall function in such meta should rely exclusively on cades.
The game should motivate people to play ranged classes, because more then 1-2 melee characters will lead to lack of space at cades and blocking ranged characters. As I said, I only see utility role for melees. And very important to have them good in both shielding and slashing, that means replaceable, and no more wipes after your shielder stupidly died when you're low on tomes or just left the game, crashed or whatever. Useful support - yes, must have dedicated - no.
As for ranged class balance I like how it now. Some say throwing is too good, but for example Warden have his maps, like Senuzdga or Jalen. With good amount of maps with long shooting ranges peltast-archer balance should not be a problem, everyone will have place to show his best.
Of course, as you Woody mentioned, there are 2 levels of play: "noobs" and "pro". And certainly I only cater to second category. But I think with such classes choice casual players also will have tools to make fun with.
RE: A better meta - DR. - 04-03-2020
(03-03-2020, 03:26 PM)Forward Wrote: Shielders do nothing that means no fun gameplay.
Slashers auto-click one button - no fun gameplay.
This Is not
(03-03-2020, 06:35 AM)Woody Wrote: objectivity when making a post...
I could say this.
Ranged auto-click one button - no fun gameplay.
(03-03-2020, 03:26 PM)Forward Wrote: The game should motivate people to play ranged classes, because more then 1-2 melee characters will lead to lack of space at cades and blocking ranged characters. As I said, I only see utility role for melees. And very important to have them good in both shielding and slashing, that means replaceable, and no more wipes after your shielder stupidly died when you're low on tomes or just left the game, crashed or whatever. Useful support - yes, must have dedicated - no.
It works both ways... You can have too many ranged on some maps the same way you can have too many melee classes. This is once again subjective to say you can only have too many melee classes.
The system shouldn't "motivate" you to change class when It is also viable to do It the other way. Plays should look for them selfs at the team and the map to see what they need. This is a team game after all so players should be looking to the leader or the majority on what to do and not on runs, not a "system" that implies you can only play one way.
(03-03-2020, 06:35 AM)Woody Wrote: Some say throwing is too good, but for example Warden have his maps, like Senuzdga or Jalen. With good amount of maps with long shooting ranges peltast-archer balance should not be a problem, everyone will have place to show his best.
Ill agree Warden could be better at some maps but that's considering the Mp didn't move closer to the bots... Like I said the extra flight speed is good but In practice, It's not much better than throwing spears. In most cases having lower flight speed (daggers) is not a hindrance. With dagger to count act having bad flight speed you just aim higher. Yes, this is objectivity harder to do but Its not impossible... In most cases, daggers flight speed is more of a benefit once you get good at it.
(03-03-2020, 03:26 PM)Forward Wrote: Of course, as you Woody mentioned, there are 2 levels of play: "noobs" and "pro". And certainly I only cater to second category. But I think with such classes choice casual players also will have tools to make fun with.
I would look at this till the 3.30min mark as It was one of my resources for this thread https://youtu.be/X1p42KtZOCw?t=10
RE: A better meta - Forward - 04-03-2020
No one can be 100% objective (because fun is subjective term), you shared your vision, I shared mine. For me 1 melee character per run is more then enough (and by 1 more then really needed). I see NI as ranged-oriented mod.
I disagree about how people should play. It's not "majority" or "leader" who gave them commands, it's game design (general rules, class balance, gear balance, map balance, etc.) which dictates optimal way to play. Yes, many players don't understand how to play the game and just copy what old players do (and sometimes when I join some normal run and see how they copy rag run strategy which not apply neither to a normal mode neither to the map - that's hilarious). But it's whatever, veteran players know how the game works and find optimal (easiest and faster) way to play, defining the meta. Again, for me, fun meta is full ranged meta maximum with 1 melee character who knows how to corner. For you it might be 16 Juggs running all around map, if by some design decision (like more OP items then now, and more bonus OP HP as now) it becomes optimal - it will happen every run.
But NI2 should be like NI, players will not like drastic changes. People want improvements like removing not working features (like crafting) and classes (like juggernaut), not complete new gameplay.
Trickle-down balance makes sense. But you should always remember to not over-complicate your game, otherwise you will lose your krill playerbase and whales will extinct too. NI has basic shooter mechanics so that's quite accessible, but just in case.
RE: A better meta - DR. - 04-03-2020
(04-03-2020, 01:24 PM)Forward Wrote: For you it might be 16 Juggs running all around map, if by some design decision (like more OP items then now, and more bonus OP HP as now) it becomes optimal - it will happen every run.
I have 16 classes for a reason "edit 19". A fun run for me Is one that's not a copy and paste of the one I did yesterday. Every class style Is viable In some area of the game but there is a difference between viable and obsolete. Some class do have the ability to make other classes obsolete given the stats they have atm.
We can get to a stage were no class Is obsolete. That should be a goal for a Ni, not just Ni2. No, the answer is not to take away class variety when people clearly enjoy the concept of all heroes to some extent.
(04-03-2020, 01:24 PM)Forward Wrote: Trickle-down balance makes sense. But you should always remember to not over-complicate your game, otherwise you will lose your krill playerbase and whales will extinct too. NI has basic shooter mechanics so that's quite accessible, but just in case.
It's not much If any harder than how they balance stuff atm. If anything It's possible easier as you find key people In the community and use them as test subjects on what is and isn't possible rather than some items taking years to find a good home In stats. I not going to claim I'm a pro at everything but I think I would at least be able to say with confidence I'm the best with ping? I wouldn't balance around ping at all but the point Is you find key people that are very good at 1 thing or a group of things.
It's not complicated Its just work like everything else.