Build points

[Ken_Repeaterman]

go back to old system please

some part of me wants to do that, too, but I don't want to provide medical care the old way.

[DR.]

go back to old system please

The old one worked so why change it? Why change for a minority?

[Kaasovic]

Ah, nice ideology you have here. But maybe your dev team ideology is wrong, if so many people here against it? Personally I liked this mod because it was casual and relaxing. If I would wanted challenging gameplay there are a lot of other M&B mods and other games.
All recent changes were terrible for me. Adding OP health to infantry, new useless bots and maps, and building system is broken now.
Instead of fixing real problems plaguing this mod for ages. But since it's dead who cares now, new building system has made all other problems insignificant, well done.

Spoiler

We can't fix "problems" if we are unaware.

The build point were introduced to limit the amount of barricades being build. Before the support overhaul was integrated it was very common to see people walling of everything and turn it into a ranged fest, basically requiring no skill at all. ...

Wouldn't it make sense to dynamically adjust the building points which are added every wave based on the number of people on the server? Or the number of engineers and their skill level? Or the game mode? As it is right now (with a flat 6 points per wave), less populated servers almost never run out of building points, whereas full servers (at least public ones) seem to have more issues with that. Which isn't all too surprising considering that larger Nord waves do much more damage to cades whereas the pool of newly available building points is the same no matter if it's going to be a handful or a large horde of Nords.

It totally makes sense. I have been made aware either in PM or on this thread that the barricades of new players are obsolete the majority of times. I overlooked this while this system was implemented and I want to thank you chaps for bringing that up. I'll add a poll to the OP that'll serve as a referendum on this matter. The outcome will be listened to and applied in a later patch.

As for the all of the of tower defense games I have played, all relied on skill and knowledge when certain "items" had to be "placed" etc. I don't know why the "tower defense" strategy in NordInvasion has to be skilless to a point where you can brain afk, but whatever I don't think that discussing this would be on topic.

Just remove them, they are useless. It's a best and easiest solution by far. Cades are limited already anyway by respawns.

And about dev team ideology, again. You're making game not for yourselves, but for players. But you can make perfect "skill-required" game for yourselves no one else will play, sure.

Problems in the past, before building system has killed the mod:
- what about the problem with late joiners and leechers, which alone made non-incentive to start public Rags, spending time on unrewarding first waves only to have full server on wave 10, and it's good if they have any support and any gear?
- infantry completely overpowered, it's just funny how you ask for more skill-required game and implement feature which allow inf to easy faceroll over Hard, not even mention Normal. Separated servers for ranged and inf would help.
- boorish commoner, just bad design both model-wise and gameplay-wise, makes no sense at all.
- many other small annoying things like new bad maps in rotation, bots shooting through small holes in some maps, still bad T3 models and such.
- some things which I forgot, there was more, I'm sure.
- solo kite or tiny teams servers would be nice addition too.

EDIT:
- also trees on Hell and Castleyard, should be removed long ago, for sure. There is "unofficial" texture fix, it's like cheating, but bots cheat shooting through them too, you know.
- how can I forget main issue with the mod? Healthbar script! Should be added to main game long ago.

If you not sure what players want, just make polls, really good idea. Just hope long-time active community members will vote, not just randoms who leave the mod after a week playing.

EDIT2:
And some of problems I mentioned would be fixed easily by implementing join vote: when new player joins the server he could not join team until majority of current players will not vote against. And it will not increase toxicity, people don't hate new players and like them to grow. But people hate when new players leech and ruin Rags.

EDIT3:
Problem: Guys with Cursed Deadshot stealing all boss kills (yes, I know, they deserve to get something for suffering with this weapon). Solution: Give everyone else on the server 0.1 of every Boss kill for quest purposes. This way you should for example either kill 3 Odins by yourself with your Deadshot or just participate in 30 successful runs, still a lot, but at least you feel having progress with your quest and not just mad after ***hole stealed your boss again regardless you mentioned you need the kill several times.

I wouldn't really say there is an active ideology in the development team. We have a general game direction that we try to stick to, but we constantly view matters in an objective way.

The majority of things you have listed are "problems" that I think hardly a majority agrees with.
I think it is hilarious that there are a few individuals that want separate servers to be setup for their kiting goals, when they have never helped out by donating.
As for all the servers; they are public and will remain public. Late joiners will always be part of the public server experience. I think you wouldn't want to be locked out of a server because you just launched the game for the first time of the day and are in for a casual run. As for the leechers; the majority of time someone is available, who can be summoned by reporting someone in game, to intervene in a matter.

I can't see how infantry is overpowered. I think they are the most vulnerable class, seeing how their way of killing relies on close combat, which increases the chance of getting overwhelmed. I gave Infantry extra health to increase their survivalability, therefor being able to get some kills as well, rather then holding back and picking up a ranged weapon.

The Boorish Commoner was a request by a donator, seeing how it was added to only normal mode I don't think it can cause a negative impact on the gameplay.

If you happen to find a map where a scene prop causes a negative effect on the gameplay you can report it on this board; https://forum.nordinvasion.com/forumdisplay.php?fid=92
Please do keep common sense in mind when reporting a bug. We have released a couple of updates where trees blocked the visibility of players.

I don't get it why the healthbar script would be such a great addition. Seeing that I think I finally managed to break it, I see no reason to implement it in game.

While I do appreciate the effort of making a list of what you think is wrong with the game, I highly doubt we are able to do much with your requests sadly.

As for the all of the of tower defense games I have played, all relied on skill and knowledge when certain "items" had to be "placed" etc. I don't know why the "tower defense" strategy in NordInvasion has to be skilless to a point where you can brain afk, but whatever I don't think that discussing this would be on topic.

I recall you once brought up Killing Floor as an example. I played the hell out of that game (check my Steam achievements), and I will tell you it is _absolutely_ "brain afk." Just like NI, you just find the camp spot and fire when they come in. And it's even simpler than NI because any team composition can win and there aren't barricades. And Killing Floor 2 is even easier.

Killing Floor 2 was brought up as an example of co-op games where the rewards were purely cosmetic and did not affect any stats.
I have only played it for 4 hours so I won't be able to confirm that it is indeed a brain afking game. The four hours I played I found the game very challenging.

go back to old system please

The old one worked so why change it? Why change for a minority?

The old system was prone to a lot of problems that affected gameplay negatively. The code behind the scenes was a mess.

[Srellian]

The old one worked so why change it? Why change for a minority?

Depends of the minority we're talking about.

Take some new players. Show them a typical run.
"See, we put 28 barricades on that chokepoint, then we all shoot the stupid bots while they are stuck there"

Now imagine what the results of this poll would be:
1: "This look so fun, how do I join?"
2: "Seems dumb, grindy and boring, why would I play this?"

[Forward]

I wouldn't really say there is an active ideology in the development team. We have a general game direction that we try to stick to, but we constantly view matters in an objective way.

The majority of things you have listed are "problems" that I think hardly a majority agrees with.
I think it is hilarious that there are a few individuals that want separate servers to be setup for their kiting goals, when they have never helped out by donating.
As for all the servers; they are public and will remain public. Late joiners will always be part of the public server experience. I think you wouldn't want to be locked out of a server because you just launched the game for the first time of the day and are in for a casual run. As for the leechers; the majority of time someone is available, who can be summoned by reporting someone in game, to intervene in a matter.

I can't see how infantry is overpowered. I think they are the most vulnerable class, seeing how their way of killing relies on close combat, which increases the chance of getting overwhelmed. I gave Infantry extra health to increase their survivalability, therefor being able to get some kills as well, rather then holding back and picking up a ranged weapon.

The Boorish Commoner was a request by a donator, seeing how it was added to only normal mode I don't think it can cause a negative impact on the gameplay.

If you happen to find a map where a scene prop causes a negative effect on the gameplay you can report it on this board; https://forum.nordinvasion.com/forumdisplay.php?fid=92
Please do keep common sense in mind when reporting a bug. We have released a couple of updates where trees blocked the visibility of players.

I don't get it why the healthbar script would be such a great addition. Seeing that I think I finally managed to break it, I see no reason to implement it in game.

While I do appreciate the effort of making a list of what you think is wrong with the game, I highly doubt we are able to do much with your requests sadly.

The old system was prone to a lot of problems that affected gameplay negatively. The code behind the scenes was a mess.

The goal is to make a good game, not good code behind it. Commercial successful and popular software has horrible code mess behind it more often then you think.

Good game for majority. So as you proposed, make a polls on arguable matters like healthbar script and implement majority decision.

Trees on Hell and Castleyard, holes in stairs on Bastion and Sw. Outskirts (stairs and wall at last corner nearby usual cading spot). Everyone who played this game long enough knows these spots, not standing at stairs on Bastion and placing extra walls to close gaps on Outskirts.

Commoner is out of design context in Normal mode. He would fit into beginner along with housewives and such. He just feels like unnatural addition now, normal supposed to be serious.

Infantry in NI has 2 roles: shielding and slashing. Implementing extra HP and forcing infantry to walk for kills is bad thing, because they block shooting and slow run down. The game goal is to kill Odin, not to get more kills. Game design should encourage teamplay, not frag contest.

Somehow you think public server experience should be horrible. Late joiners problem exists and there should be compromise solution good for majority. Maybe poll only on wave 12 hard and 9 and 12 rag, and free for everyone on every other wave. You can't pretend this problem does not exist.

Reason to have script is providing equal game opportunity for everyone. Until quests in the game focused on Boss lasthits the script is needed. Don't pretend it's equal opportunities now. Just believe me, guy with Cursed Deadshot has it.

I would like to have public discussion on every game change. Game is dead because it was developing without touch of community for a long time. If your personal game experience is nice it doesn't mean everyone else feels the same. There are a lot of playstyles and some people have problems you don't have (like trees). So just ask community more often on these matters.

[Kaasovic]

The goal is to make a good game, not good code behind it. Commercial successful and popular software has horrible code mess behind it more often then you think.

This is absolute bullshit. Horrible code means poor performance, trust me.

Good game for majority. So as you proposed, make a polls on arguable matters like healthbar script and implement majority decision.

We usually hold an internal poll when it comes to some decisions. However the development will always have the final saying in matters. Think about the following: If we let the community decide about everything; Would the lootchance not be at 100%? (seeing how many people would love to loot something) Would stats of certain weapons be way too overpowered?

Trees on Hell and Castleyard, holes in stairs on Bastion and Sw. Outskirts (stairs and wall at last corner nearby usual cading spot). Everyone who played this game long enough knows these spots, not standing at stairs on Bastion and placing extra walls to close gaps on Outskirts.

I think I have played long enough and yet still have no clue where these spots are. I would like to once again refer to the scene board in the help section if you would like to see them fixed.

Commoner is out of design context in Normal mode. He would fit into beginner along with housewives and such. He just feels like unnatural addition now, normal supposed to be serious.

There are multiple half naked enemies that spawn in normal mode, would those be out of context as well? Or is it because beer is thrown.. either way it's still a game, it doesn't have to reflect reality

Infantry in NI has 2 roles: shielding and slashing. Implementing extra HP and forcing infantry to walk for kills is bad thing, because they block shooting and slow run down. The game goal is to kill Odin, not to get more kills. Game design should encourage teamplay, not frag contest.

It's funny how you are all about forcing the development team to listen to the community, but when it comes to infantry they have to be forced to follow a directed play style. The purpose of infantry is infantry. People can play the character as they wish and should not be limited in their way of doing so. Oh and your game design should encourage teamplay statement is a bit odd when you are all against a support system that forces more teamplay on the players.

Somehow you think public server experience should be horrible. Late joiners problem exists and there should be compromise solution good for majority. Maybe poll only on wave 12 hard and 9 and 12 rag, and free for everyone on every other wave. You can't pretend this problem does not exist.

I have no clue what you are trying to say here, but making an option to lock out (certain) player to spawn on a wave will never happen.

Reason to have script is providing equal game opportunity for everyone. Until quests in the game focused on Boss lasthits the script is needed. Don't pretend it's equal opportunities now. Just believe me, guy with Cursed Deadshot has it.2

Without the script everyone has an equal opportunity as well. Landing the last hit is completely random. Adding a script will make this only worse as players with a Cursed Dead Shot can tell exactly when they should land the last shot.

I would like to have public discussion on every game change. Game is dead because it was developing without touch of community for a long time. If your personal game experience is nice it doesn't mean everyone else feels the same. There are a lot of playstyles and some people have problems you don't have (like trees). So just ask community more often on these matters.

I agree that polls should be created more often, as I have done a couple in the past. Just know that by far anything can be discussed in a poll.
If people are still playing the game is far from dead.

I would like to ask you to be less negative and to have a bit more understanding that your own gameplay differs from a lot of others.

[DR.]

"Good game for majority. So as you proposed, [u]make a polls on arguable matters like heal
We usually hold an internal poll when it comes to some decisions. However the development will always have the final saying in matters. Think about the following: If we let the community decide about everything; Would the lootchance not be at 100%? (seeing how many people would love to loot something) Would stats of certain weapons be way too overpowered?"

I think if you made it you need x things to vote. Don't think it wouls be that bad... Some stuff the community would go a bit over board with stats wise but saying stuff would be 100% from a poll from big group is ridiculous. 

"If people are still playing the game is far from dead.

I would like to ask you to be less negative and to have a bit more understanding that your own gameplay differs from a lot of others."

Something may not be dead but saying something is slowly dying or heading there is different.

[Sir Baron]

If I remember right
There was a poll posted before the support overhaul
I think it was 80-90% wanted a support overhaul and most of those who did not where part of the admin team

[DR.]

If I remember right
There was a poll posted before the support overhaul
I think it was 80-90% wanted a support overhaul and most of those who did not were part of the admin team

That doesn't state we would be happy with this outcome when we had no knowledge of it would be.



I would like the model of twigs changed 

No
[Yes]

Gets a model that looks not much better than a dog's dick.

Turns out the old model was good.

[Faravin]

Old system worked 6 years, no issues, I bet this mod will be played more if people wouldnt wipe every 2 times cause noone like the current system or undertands it... i mean, its good if u implement new stuff, but there was obv no reason to change it.. and u see the shitstorm now.