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Make toming safe after a prayer
#11
(10-11-2019, 04:23 PM)Fendi Wrote: Pretty sure at this point it would be better to increase the difficulty of rag rather than make it easier.

I'll agree with that.

We have 4 modes being "easy" + normal + hard + rag.

I see no incentive to make a new game mode that's harder than rag. I do want something harder I just don't think a new mode is needed.

(10-11-2019, 11:39 PM)Forward Wrote:
  1. Might be wrong perspective if you mostly play events. On public server you'll have half team noobs/leechers/afkers/idiots and only couple decent players, which will make Rag more then challenging. Yes, sometimes good teams happen, but good team will defend 3 wraiths easily so no one will be ever use this ability, so it's unaffected by proposed change at all. And sometimes rolling wraiths better then not in Rag team full of slowpokes.
  2. It will still cost 25*52=1300 gold per use, which I don't know maybe 10% of your gold income of full Rag ran excuding quests so I expect people will be greedy with it. Definitely not with every tome, only in clutch moments which might not being occurred at all.
  3. It adds another strategy/complexity feature which raise skill cap, actually making game more difficult.
  4. It adds roleplay element to the game which is always nice.
  5. If you want add difficulty to the game how about changing wraiths chances to 100% if a tome used without a sacrifice? 


On public why do you want to play Rag? For the good loot or the challenge or a mix of both? For me and I would guess a lot if not all its the mix of both. 

Don't take this the wrong way I'm sure even if rag gets harder there will be public teams that could still do it. Yes, w15 has better gold, XP and mat drops than w6 but the legendary items are subjective in how much they cost. For example who drops "better" items on avg Odin or Hodur? Completing game modes is overrated for how mad people get when teams wipe. If a team wipes on w9 rag well done you did a good job and you got more than halfway.  

If rag gets harder we will have more wipes on public sure but I would probably expect people to organise them selfs to make public runs more. What is the difference between an event and public?  The only big differences are 17 vs 20 people, Being able to pick the map and having a password on the server. 

To me, a system like this just values the rich more ingame play as a bottomless money bag for extra luck. Being able to pay gold for safer tomes is not "strategy". Its 1st a gold sink and 2nd a new mechanic. Even if the cost of this is lower or higher its only 1 person carrying the team on that wave. How is this different or a new strategy when I and others carry people already with items and themself being there. To me, a system like this just values the rich more as a bottomless money bag for extra luck.

I wouldn't be against this as much if it was something that didn't cost anything but was something most if anyone can do at the cost of needing communication or some skill to set it off. 


If it was me I would not be looking at tomes/wraiths to make this game harder or easier. I would just hit it at the source being stats then add new systems that allow you get some or all stats back that involve planning before the run even happens or when it is happing.  


(10-11-2019, 10:09 PM)Fendi Wrote: 1)higher number of runs should fail than succeed outside of events. This gives house events an upper hand, causing players to hold them.

Agreed.

(10-11-2019, 10:09 PM)Fendi Wrote: 4+5)As far as I am aware more powerful legendary items have been added to the game i.e Glory for Legio, and legendaries are upgradable. Shouldn't bots be buffed to counteract this to make it challenging still rather than just lowering the difficulty with more powerful gear?

In terms of value, all red are the same and all orange are the same. I can tell you we know from mutable factors reds are worth more but that's as much as we can see looking at the data available to the public.

Players can value things differently but that doesn't change the fact that in theory, Typhoon is no better than Elegy. Arguments can be made for what is better using objective statements but in the end that may mean one needs a buff and the other a nerf or some version of that.

I don't agree with the buff bots statement when I would just nerf us given it would be easier. Like I said before I would nerf us then give us a way to get some or all stats back using a system that anyone can use. Not a gold/mats sink but a posable time or planning sink.

Here is the one I suggested but I'm sure we could find others that use the same method of if you plan the run beforehand you have a lot better chance to win.

https://forum.nordinvasion.com/showthread.php?tid=73131


(10-11-2019, 11:39 PM)Forward Wrote: 1. Another nail in the NI coffin.
3. Time is important resource too. You spend not gold, but gold+time. It might worth it, might not. You need to decide every time -> more complexity -> more skill cap.
4-5. Rag is challenging for 99% players already (and if you're 1% you can complete it solo to make it challenging enough). If you want more difficult Rag - create another topic and we can talk about it. Here I want to discuss exactly one idea and that's all.

while it would be only beneficial for in-game economy to add another gold sink.

https://i.gyazo.com/56bee03845bd8b033c6f...d005c7.png

Why does it need to be gold+time when it could just be time (planning).

ehhh saying 99% people find it challenging... I think all people find it somewhat challenging even if you can solo rag. If you want to complete Rag and even Hard for most people is about the team itself.

If you wanted more public rag runs to succeed talking about how you want rag to be harder is perfectly on topic. Once again I would question why do you want to play rag? For me I want rag to be a challenge 1st and 2nd be rewarding. If you wanted to play just for the loot you would set up a public event like how Faravin does it.

The "lucky tome" idea is not a bad one and I see it could have potential but if you're only after a way to make rag easier to the public teams I question was this even related? It's true a bad tome can wipe runs but I see this a good "level cap". If I was you I would have focused on trying to find data on how many public runs wipe purely from bad tomes. From guessing it would be idk 10-25%? I honestly think most rag runs don't complete rag for not having the experienced players or a lack of cades/items.

When a public server in normal has a few good people they say "hard?". When a hard server has lots of good people they move onto rag. They do this from guessing... no planning other than saying go on Na1 is given to people. I would want a system that rewards people planning in that normal how they want to do rag not just "let's go to EU2". Planing is hard work yes but its more rewarding as its engaging rather than just being pure luck almost.

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#12
Its unbelieveable how good u think you are Forward just amazing
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#13
(11-11-2019, 05:24 AM)Woody Wrote:
(10-11-2019, 11:39 PM)Forward Wrote:
  1. Might be wrong perspective if you mostly play events. On public server you'll have half team noobs/leechers/afkers/idiots and only couple decent players, which will make Rag more then challenging. Yes, sometimes good teams happen, but good team will defend 3 wraiths easily so no one will be ever use this ability, so it's unaffected by proposed change at all. And sometimes rolling wraiths better then not in Rag team full of slowpokes.
  2. It will still cost 25*52=1300 gold per use, which I don't know maybe 10% of your gold income of full Rag ran excuding quests so I expect people will be greedy with it. Definitely not with every tome, only in clutch moments which might not being occurred at all.
  3. It adds another strategy/complexity feature which raise skill cap, actually making game more difficult.
  4. It adds roleplay element to the game which is always nice.
  5. If you want add difficulty to the game how about changing wraiths chances to 100% if a tome used without a sacrifice? 


On public why do you want to play Rag? For the good loot or the challenge or a mix of both? For me and I would guess a lot if not all its the mix of both. 

Don't take this the wrong way I'm sure even if rag gets harder there will be public teams that could still do it. Yes, w15 has better gold, XP and mat drops than w6 but the legendary items are subjective in how much they cost. For example who drops "better" items on avg Odin or Hodur? Completing game modes is overrated for how mad people get when teams wipe. If a team wipes on w9 rag well done you did a good job and you got more than halfway.  

If rag gets harder we will have more wipes on public sure but I would probably expect people to organise them selfs to make public runs more. What is the difference between an event and public?  The only big differences are 17 vs 20 people, Being able to pick the map and having a password on the server. 

To me, a system like this just values the rich more ingame play as a bottomless money bag for extra luck. Being able to pay gold for safer tomes is not "strategy". Its 1st a gold sink and 2nd a new mechanic. Even if the cost of this is lower or higher its only 1 person carrying the team on that wave. How is this different or a new strategy when I and others carry people already with items and themself being there. To me, a system like this just values the rich more as a bottomless money bag for extra luck.

I wouldn't be against this as much if it was something that didn't cost anything but was something most if anyone can do at the cost of needing communication or some skill to set it off. 


If it was me I would not be looking at tomes/wraiths to make this game harder or easier. I would just hit it at the source being stats then add new systems that allow you get some or all stats back that involve planning before the run even happens or when it is happing.  

First of all I still insist this idea has nothing with changing Rag difficulty. If you want difficulty been the same you just increase default wraith rate to 1.5x-2x from now and set 'sacrifice+tome' wraith chance to 0.5x from current and game difficulty will be +- the same.

Second, I expected from you something like 'if it was something that didn't cost anything'. You're rich because this way of thinking, I'm sure.

(11-11-2019, 05:24 AM)Woody Wrote:
(10-11-2019, 11:39 PM)Forward Wrote: 1. Another nail in the NI coffin.
3. Time is important resource too. You spend not gold, but gold+time. It might worth it, might not. You need to decide every time -> more complexity -> more skill cap.
4-5. Rag is challenging for 99% players already (and if you're 1% you can complete it solo to make it challenging enough). If you want more difficult Rag - create another topic and we can talk about it. Here I want to discuss exactly one idea and that's all.

while it would be only beneficial for in-game economy to add another gold sink.

https://i.gyazo.com/56bee03845bd8b033c6f...d005c7.png

Why does it need to be gold+time when it could just be time (planning).

ehhh saying 99% people find it challenging... I think all people find it somewhat challenging even if you can solo rag. If you want to complete Rag and even Hard for most people is about the team itself.

If you wanted more public rag runs to succeed talking about how you want rag to be harder is perfectly on topic. Once again I would question why do you want to play rag? For me I want rag to be a challenge 1st and 2nd be rewarding. If you wanted to play just for the loot you would set up a public event like how Faravin does it.

The "lucky tome" idea is not a bad one and I see it could have potential but if you're only after a way to make rag easier to the public teams I question was this even related? It's true a bad tome can wipe runs but I see this a good "level cap". If I was you I would have focused on trying to find data on how many public runs wipe purely from bad tomes. From guessing it would be idk 10-25%? I honestly think most rag runs don't complete rag for not having the experienced players or a lack of cades/items.       

When a public server in normal has a few good people they say "hard?". When a hard server has lots of good people they move onto rag. They do this from guessing... no planning other than saying go on Na1 is given to people. I would want a system that rewards people planning in that normal how they want to do rag not just "let's go to EU2". Planing is hard work yes but its more rewarding as its engaging rather than just being pure luck almost.

Me or you we can play rag for challenge, for fun or for whatever. It's a fact majority of players play this game for a loot. If doubt, ask PCK.

I want more public runs to succeed no doubt. I think it better should be done by increasing average player level in it, in past I even proposed additional support filter for players joining Rag, which was rejected. I still see no reason to allow players with normal cades or medic without tomes to join Rag runs, where they will obviously will be burdens for the team, and leeching is against the rules still.

But as I said there is no reason to discuss rag difficulty in this thread.
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#14
(11-11-2019, 01:59 PM)Forward Wrote: First of all I still insist this idea has nothing with changing Rag difficulty.

Let me quote what you have called this topic "Make toming safe after a prayer".

From this, we can assume you have a problem with how tomes are atm and want to change them. The wanting to make them safer implies you want rag to be easier or the least predictable. Even then you would have said predictable if you meant that. 

(11-11-2019, 01:59 PM)Forward Wrote: Second, I expected from you something like 'if it was something that didn't cost anything'. You're rich because this way of thinking, I'm sure.

You say this like its a bad thing to be self-aware of what I and others do with gold/wealth. 

Why do we need a one more gold sink also?

"Being able to pay gold for safer tomes is not a "strategy". Its 1st a gold sink and 2nd a new mechanic."

(10-11-2019, 11:39 PM)Forward Wrote: Me or you we can play rag for challenge, for fun or for whatever. It's a fact majority of players play this game for a loot. If doubt, ask PCK.

Fact? Ill agree all people want loot but suggesting majority think one way when you have no evidence to support such a claim... Nice.

Why do I need to ask someone when his opinion on the matter would not be any better than mine unless he had evidence that was not available to me.

Even then it's an opinion unless we see supporting evidence also why PCK and not a Dev?

The question you should be asking here is what comes 1st for you in Ni and what comes after it? Looting I can see being at number 1 for alot of people but Ni cant be just a slot machine otherwise we would have a Retention Rate problem. 

Why do you think only 1 house is doing events atm? Did people magically disappear?  

(10-11-2019, 11:39 PM)Forward Wrote: I want more public runs to succeed no doubt. 


I'll lay out some questions that ill answer that you can answer if you disagree.

Q1) Why do you and others want to play Ni?

A1) For a number of factours but I can't say for sure what would be the main one or in what order they would come as I have no evidence to back it up.
      E.g. Loot, Bext Xp, Gold, The challenge, ... 


Q2)
What causes the wipes in public and event servers

A2) I think most wipes are from teams just not having the requirements in terms of items, people, game experience...  Then we would have failed tomes, forgetting to do stuff, and even trolls etc..


Q3) What makes a run succeed?

A3) Completing the goal the team has and most of the time it's trying to beat w15. 


Q4) Is it Important that a run does w15?

A4) Its a game after all and we have mutable difficulties to pick from. I would expect teams to jump the gun to see what that group of people is capable of even if it not enough to do that mode.  


Q5)
How much should 1 person be able to carry a team in rag?

A5) No more than atm and I posable land on a posable nerf but I'm unsure how to do so. From guessing, I would make the individual worth less and the group worth more.

That's could be done like this. https://forum.nordinvasion.com/showthread.php?tid=73131

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#15
You post walls of off-topic here, Woody.
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#16
(11-11-2019, 04:00 PM)Woody Wrote:
(10-11-2019, 11:39 PM)Forward Wrote: Me or you we can play rag for challenge, for fun or for whatever. It's a fact majority of players play this game for a loot. If doubt, ask PCK.

Fact? Ill agree all people want loot but suggesting majority think one way when you have no evidence to support such a claim... Nice.

This actually has been demonstrated. Whenever legendary loot chance increases through events, or items seem to be dropping more, alongside no other difference to any mechanics which affect difficulty (nor "fun"), the player activity increases. This mod is a solved game, people aren't playing for the difficulty.

Also note that "the fun is in the loot," "time is loot," and so on are repeated sayings amongst many players of the mod. Meanwhile, "the fun is in the challenge" is not.
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#17
Another modification of original idea.

Like Piety in ADOM.

To explain it: the number assigned to show Swadian Gods disposition towards the team. Average by default.

The higher disposition the better successful tome chance. Every tome usage decreases disposition. Every sacrifice at shrine increases disposition. Killing Nordic Gods also increases it.

At low dispositions Nordic Gods have ability to use their skills (like Loki's trickster creation, Thor's lightning storm and Odin's spears) with lower cooldowns.

Discuss.
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#18
(11-11-2019, 07:08 PM)Malong Wrote: Whenever legendary loot chance increases through events, or items seem to be dropping more, alongside no other difference to any mechanics which affect difficulty (nor "fun"), the player activity increases. This mod is a solved game, people aren't playing for the difficulty.

Also note that "the fun is in the loot," "time is loot," and so on are repeated sayings amongst many players of the mod. Meanwhile, "the fun is in the challenge" is not.

Whenever an update is put out that affects stats alongside no other difference to any mechanics such as drop rate, the player activity increases.
Whenever an update is put out that affects maps alongside no other difference to any mechanics such as drop rate, the player activity increases.
Whenever an update to what upgrades are available alongside no other difference to any mechanics such as drop rate, the player activity increases.
Whenever devs hold special events alongside no other difference to any mechanics such as drop rate, the player activity increases.
...

Nice. Like I said here.

(11-11-2019, 04:00 PM)Woody Wrote: The question you should be asking here is what comes 1st for you in Ni and what comes after it? Looting I can see being at number 1 for a lot of people but Ni cant be just a slot machine otherwise we would have a Retention Rate problem. 

Why do you think only 1 house is doing events atm? Did people magically disappear?  


To hit my point in harder let's say for example hard was the hardest mod we had available. I would argue the retention rate would be even worse given its no fun winning constantly. It can also be said studies show this in real life and ill find them if need be.  

Yes, looting is a nice high for being so rare but you need something to do in the meantime. Doing something repeatable that's easy is a way to get exhausted fast and this is proven by how we spike in player numbers so often this year doing house events.

Sure its "fun" winning the lottery but it needs to be entertaining or challenging in the meantime otherwise why invest that much time trying to win? For you to experience the high of looting you need to understand how hard looting is. This has been lost to me for some time given how "easy" rag truly is when you have a good team. 

People almost unanimously agree Ni was more fun at the start when you had nothing. I would put this up to mutable factors but one of them being the game is just harder when you have lesser stats being you need to depend more on your team. For how big that factor is I can't say but I hope you can agree it's probably a bigger factor than people would be willing to admit.

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#19
(12-11-2019, 03:13 AM)Woody Wrote:
(11-11-2019, 07:08 PM)Malong Wrote: Whenever legendary loot chance increases through events, or items seem to be dropping more, alongside no other difference to any mechanics which affect difficulty (nor "fun"), the player activity increases. This mod is a solved game, people aren't playing for the difficulty.

Also note that "the fun is in the loot," "time is loot," and so on are repeated sayings amongst many players of the mod. Meanwhile, "the fun is in the challenge" is not.

Whenever an update is put out that affects stats alongside no other difference to any mechanics such as drop rate, the player activity increases.
Whenever an update is put out that affects maps alongside no other difference to any mechanics such as drop rate, the player activity increases.
Whenever an update to what upgrades are available alongside no other difference to any mechanics such as drop rate, the player activity increases.

Ignoring the fact that you haven't demonstrated that any of those changes increased player base, please show us whenever any update you cite changed only one of those mechanics. Because if you took the few minutes to look, it's not any the last ten which spans September 2, 2018 to now. And are you seriously trying to push your dumb narrative that stat and map changes bring a significant number of people back again? We didn't believe it the first time, and we don't believe it now.

  1. 1.11.8: maps along with bug fixes
  2. 1.11.7: stats along with maps
  3. 1.11.6: no changes to stats, maps, nor upgrades
  4. 1.11.5: stats along with maps
  5. 1.11.4: stats along with maps
  6. 1.11.3: stats along with maps
  7. 1.11.2: stats along with maps
  8. 1.11.1: maps along with bug fixes
  9. 1.11.0: no changes to stats, maps, nor upgrades
  10. 1.10.3: maps along with bug fixes
(12-11-2019, 03:13 AM)Woody Wrote: Whenever devs hold special events alongside no other difference to any mechanics such as drop rate, the player activity increases.

The (currently still ongoing) Halloween event really increased the player base. Derp.

(12-11-2019, 03:13 AM)Woody Wrote:
(11-11-2019, 04:00 PM)Woody Wrote: The question you should be asking here is what comes 1st for you in Ni and what comes after it? Looting I can see being at number 1 for a lot of people but Ni cant be just a slot machine otherwise we would have a Retention Rate problem. 

Why do you think only 1 house is doing events atm? Did people magically disappear?  

Unrewarding gameplay. "Fuck this unrewarding mod" - Berkays during some official event

(12-11-2019, 03:13 AM)Woody Wrote: To hit my point in harder let's say for example hard was the hardest mod we had available. I would argue the retention rate would be even worse given its no fun winning constantly. It can also be said studies show this in real life and ill find them if need be.

Citation needed. Meanwhile evidence of the opposite has happened where losing too much caused players to leave. People want loot before challenge. Here you go.

(12-11-2019, 03:13 AM)Woody Wrote: Yes, looting is a nice high for being so rare but you need something to do in the meantime. Doing something repeatable that's easy is a way to get exhausted fast and this is proven by how we spike in player numbers so often this year doing house events.

What?

(12-11-2019, 03:13 AM)Woody Wrote: People almost unanimously agree Ni was more fun at the start when you had nothing. I would put this up to mutable factors but one of them being the game is just harder when you have lesser stats being you need to depend more on your team. For how big that factor is I can't say but I hope you can agree it's probably a bigger factor than people would be willing to admit.

Citation needed. Remember this poll and thread that proposed starting everyone off with nothing again? 64/124 is 51.6%; to me, that's quite far from "almost unanimously." Your mileage may vary though if you think 15 days is 4 weeks.

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#20
(12-11-2019, 03:53 AM)Malong Wrote: Ignoring the fact that you haven't demonstrated that any of those changes increased player base, please show us whenever any update you cite changed only one of those mechanics. Because if you took the few minutes to look, it's not any the last ten which spans September 2, 2018 to now. And are you seriously trying to push your dumb narrative that stat and map changes bring a significant number of people back again? We didn't believe it the first time, and we don't believe it now.

  1. 1.11.8: maps along with bug fixes
  2. 1.11.7: stats along with maps
  3. 1.11.6: no changes to stats, maps, nor upgrades
  4. 1.11.5: stats along with maps
  5. 1.11.4: stats along with maps
  6. 1.11.3: stats along with maps
  7. 1.11.2: stats along with maps
  8. 1.11.1: maps along with bug fixes
  9. 1.11.0: no changes to stats, maps, nor upgrades
  10. 1.10.3: maps along with bug fixes

This pic is from March 9th, 2018 given it shows data rather than "guessing".  This was probably the highest points in Ni in terms of player numbers. We had a lot of looting happing at the same time. Is the player numbers just from the looting or is it just from the updates? It's both and other stuff...

Looting is in infrequent but when it happens a lot by chance or by a posable change in drop rate people want to play more as they think they have a better chance. Basically, once the ball gets rolling it gets faster and faster till eventually flattens out from a case of boredom.

What I suggest is updates spike player numbers in turn pushing the "luck" up. The luck is superficial its just a matter of how many people are rolling the dice unless the drop rate really did change.  

[Image: 1SD0vlx.png]

Quest Overhaul - Feb 16th
1.9.0 - March 1st
1.9.1 - March 2nd
1.9.2 - March 17th

Pic from here - March 9th, 2018




The last stats update was for me July 13th.

Ok, using the item thread we can get an idea of how many runs are being done. Not everyone uses it so it's not perfect but it will give us a basic idea.

July 6th - maybe afk loot
July 9th - 1 loot
July 10th - 1 loot
July 12th - 1 loot 
July 13th - 2 loots 
July 14th - 3 loots 
July 15th - 2 loots
July 16th - 1 loot 
July 17th - 1 and 1 afk loot
July 18th - 1
July 19th - 1
July 20th - 2s
July 21st - 5! (DB event) Just a week after the update.
July 22nd - 3s
...

(12-11-2019, 03:53 AM)Malong Wrote: The (currently still ongoing) Halloween event really increased the player base. Derp.

I'll do this for the Halloween 2019 event but I have my problems with it ill talk about later.

October 1st - 1 loot 
October 2nd - 1 loot 
October 17th - 2 loots 
October 19th - 2  loots
October 30th - 1 loot 
November 2nd - 3 loots
November 4th - 1 loot 
November 6th - 2 loots 
November 7th - 1 loot 
November 8th - afk loot 


It can be shown updates either being big or small they have an effect on the player base. Of course, it can't happen right away as it takes people time to see an update been pushed and it takes time to set up an event.


The currently still ongoing halloween event is different in what way to normal gameplay? That's partly why I think I and others have not played Ni in about a week. It's not that much rewarding over normal modes and its not changeling vs rag... It's just a skin with no real reason for players to do more than once. I didn't have time to do the halloween event last year but no wonder people aren't jumping on it it's just the same thing no?

I'm sure if we looked at double XP week or even the upcoming Xmas event and did this to them they will outperform this halloween in terms of people playing and in turn looting.   


(12-11-2019, 03:53 AM)Malong Wrote: As the leader of said house with events, it's because public servers leave much to be desired and we want to give ourselves the best chances to get loot. Are you really trying to tell me that my house plays for fun and challenge over loot? Because we fucking don't.


Citation needed. Meanwhile evidence of the opposite has happened where losing too much caused players to leave. People want loot before challenge. Here you go.

This was not focused on why you are the only one left more why others left. It's no secret the DB events were the most successful or at least the way they did them. 


Yes, you need to win some amount of your games for you to want to play those games. People argue about a % but I think it matters in what game you play. For any game, I would say you need to win at a minimum of 30% of the time to keep playing. For Ni how much is that minimum? More importantly what qualifies a win? I think most people say doing w15 is the win given its one of the only end goals in Ni. 

If I wanted to win all the time I would play normal or easy no? Why do you want to play rag when we don't need to? Normal and hard have stuff we can loot. Its all about the Risk/Reward Ratio. Rag has the best xp and the best gold but the loot is subjective in its cost. The only objective thing we can say without seeing drop rates is the loot on rag is harder to get. This is not even a factour people really think about anymore when pricing stuff because the market is flooded with duplicates and rag has become so easy it's not even worth saying. 

I can't find a study I like on risk/reward or other topics like it but im sure you could just look at the wiki if you really wanted to? Risk and Reward is fun otherwise we would be happy to play on normal and never move away from it once we got to a certain point. Yea, it's fun to go on normal to kite once every so often with a full set of upgraded gear but I don't see this as fun or even entertaining most of the time... Why would I?

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