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Change orange legendaries
#51
(12-03-2020, 08:07 AM)Woody Wrote: At least we could agree Orange loots In the system are closer to Red considering how they seem to have similar or the same drop rates.

Double, actually.

Carry on.
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#52
(12-03-2020, 04:10 PM)Winter Wrote:
(12-03-2020, 08:07 AM)Woody Wrote: At least we could agree Orange loots In the system are closer to Red considering how they seem to have similar or the same drop rates.

Double, actually.

Carry on.

Saying double is a bit misleading is it not? 0.1 could be Red and 0.2 could be Orange. Saying double doesn't really say much unless when new the drop rate. Given most normal people can't tell I'm not wrong in saying it feels close.

Where do you think oranges are.

Are they a mid point between Reds and Dark Blues?

Or

Are closer to Reds then housecraftables?

Given they hold some key being usability and they are lootable like Reds I think they are close or on par with reds. Like ags and vgs are technically better then Legacy and Dur in usability just no one uses it how it was intended to be used.

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#53
(12-03-2020, 05:26 PM)Woody Wrote:
(12-03-2020, 04:10 PM)Winter Wrote:
(12-03-2020, 08:07 AM)Woody Wrote: At least we could agree Orange loots In the system are closer to Red considering how they seem to have similar or the same drop rates.

Double, actually.

Carry on.

Saying double is a bit misleading is it not? 0.1 could be Red and 0.2 could be Orange.

Don't start with me.  The drop rate is literally double.  If Studded Gauntlets on prince are 5/100, then Sun Pike on Prince is 10/100.  The chance of looting an orange drop is calculated by multiplying what the chance of looting a red drop from the same bot would be based on our assigned bot values multiplied by two. 0.2 is double 0.1, so the statement that it is double is factually accurate.

If you want to argue about wave distributions and blah blah, that is beyond the scope of my statement.  I am not going to take an aggregate of the probability of looting every orange and every red based on frequency of rolls (average bots spawned per run), ratio of modes completed, and give you a number based on that.  Please go back to arguing with each other, not me.  I just wanted to clarify the difference in drop rates between reds and oranges.
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#54
(12-03-2020, 05:44 PM)Winter Wrote:
(12-03-2020, 05:26 PM)Woody Wrote:
(12-03-2020, 04:10 PM)Winter Wrote:
(12-03-2020, 08:07 AM)Woody Wrote: At least we could agree Orange loots In the system are closer to Red considering how they seem to have similar or the same drop rates.

Double, actually.

Carry on.

Saying double is a bit misleading is it not? 0.1 could be Red and 0.2 could be Orange.

Don't start with me.  The drop rate is literally double.  If Studded Gauntlets on prince are 5/100, then Sun Pike on Prince is 10/100.  The chance of looting an orange drop is calculated by multiplying what the chance of looting a red drop from the same bot would be based on our assigned bot values multiplied by two. 0.2 is double 0.1, so the statement that it is double is factually accurate.

If you want to argue about wave distributions and blah blah, that is beyond the scope of my statement.  I am not going to take an aggregate of the probability of looting every orange and every red based on frequency of rolls (bots spawned per run), ratio of modes completed, and give you a number based on that.  Please go back to arguing with each other, not me.  I just wanted to clarify the difference in drop rates between reds and oranges.

Just wanted to point out it's misleading. 1st time I read it I was thinking ok maybe that's a big reason for why but like I said without a lot of context oranges dropping a little bit (2x ) more is just a fun fact as it doesn't really say much on the topic.

Think nothing more on that comment I guess.

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#55
(12-03-2020, 05:53 PM)Woody Wrote:
(12-03-2020, 05:44 PM)Winter Wrote:
(12-03-2020, 05:26 PM)Woody Wrote:
(12-03-2020, 04:10 PM)Winter Wrote:
(12-03-2020, 08:07 AM)Woody Wrote: At least we could agree Orange loots In the system are closer to Red considering how they seem to have similar or the same drop rates.

Double, actually.

Carry on.

Saying double is a bit misleading is it not? 0.1 could be Red and 0.2 could be Orange.

Don't start with me.  The drop rate is literally double.  If Studded Gauntlets on prince are 5/100, then Sun Pike on Prince is 10/100.  The chance of looting an orange drop is calculated by multiplying what the chance of looting a red drop from the same bot would be based on our assigned bot values multiplied by two. 0.2 is double 0.1, so the statement that it is double is factually accurate.

If you want to argue about wave distributions and blah blah, that is beyond the scope of my statement.  I am not going to take an aggregate of the probability of looting every orange and every red based on frequency of rolls (bots spawned per run), ratio of modes completed, and give you a number based on that.  Please go back to arguing with each other, not me.  I just wanted to clarify the difference in drop rates between reds and oranges.

Just wanted to point out it's misleading. 1st time I read it I was thinking ok maybe that's a big reason for why but like I said without a lot of context oranges dropping a little bit (2x ) more is just a fun fact as it doesn't really say much on the topic.

Think nothing more on that comment I guess.

The concept of increasing by a multiplicative factor of two is misleading. This thread is filled with some great gems. Perfect 5/7.
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#56
(12-03-2020, 02:30 PM)Malong Wrote: Holy shit! You don't know how quotes work!

Quoting on a phone properly is a nightmare. I'll take short cuts or ill not do it at all.

If I think It's not worth my time I'll skip it as well.

(12-03-2020, 03:01 PM)Malong Wrote: I actually searched, but is there an expectation that a thread titled "Hero+" would have related to "gold sinks[s]?" 

It wasn't even that far down if you just searched "gold sink" https://gyazo.com/cc92efd95892802bf0e3a75b52cb33e2

Calling it hero+... The name implying I want better than the hero stats we had... What did you think the cost would be? 

(12-03-2020, 03:01 PM)Malong Wrote: If in your years of filing feature requests (this is still overdue), you had ever learned how to submit a clear one, that would help.

[Link]

Who do you think is taking more in this strange relationship. You that likes to point out things sometimes very petty things and have a laugh. Good for you. 

Or me, I like pressing some buttons knowing I'm improving at this skill that I was once heavily lacking in. I'm not the best at writing a request and I never will be but I'm improving. I'm practising on something I feel passionate about being Ni. Also, Its good fun stirring the pot every so offended.

I think we both win or lose as we are here for different things. 

(12-03-2020, 03:01 PM)Malong Wrote: "Woody committed murder. Don't ask me for proof, that's just petty, just go arrest him, judge him guilty for first degree murder, and sentence him immediately. I'm not doing all of your homework. Ooh ooh ah ah ah."

I gave the evidence I wanted a big gold sink before upgrades as that's all I really need to show. This judge feels biased. 

(13-03-2020, 03:35 AM)Malong Wrote: I would argue that's a consequence of the changes, and not strictly the intention. 

So devs make changes to how the game is and Its "not strictly the intention" things may change? What??

The devs can and have made changes to the market. To say It's not strictly the intention leaves me to say what was the main reason upgrades got implemented. 

I personally see it being a rich tax 1st not so people can have better items... You needed to give the players something for paying so much otherwise its just a tax with no benefit.   

(13-03-2020, 03:35 AM)Malong Wrote: But if few people want items at a given price and would only pay less for it, how is it possible that this is not the community dictating the price? This seems to lend credence to that idea. In the end, eople don't want to pay the now-inflated prices of these common and non-optimal items.

No, I agree on people make their own prices and trade according. For how they trade, If they trade and what they trade is on the devs. You will be the last person to decide what you will pay and sell for but Its the devs that control how those items came to be. 

Just 1 example, other than upgrades. The devs made the Legendary item week. They could see it would have an effect on the market before making the event. 

(13-03-2020, 03:35 AM)Malong Wrote: It's clear you didn't search!

This is factually untrue and you know it. All it means is I found the 1st one and didn't go much past it as I didn't think It was necessary given I didn't claim I was the 1st that wanted it.

"I did put light on that subject"

(13-03-2020, 03:35 AM)Malong Wrote: Because, yet again, for the most part, orange legendaries are superseded by red legendaries

They are better In stats but usability is another question. Hell for this argument All heroes (Dur) should be less than 1 heroes (Legacy). 

More usability = less normal stats

"Like Ags and Vgs are technically better then Legacy and Dur in usability just no one uses it how it was intended to be used."

For how much Tempest is better than Ullrs for being 1 hero? The same difference applies when you talk about going to F-bow from Ullrs. Going from Orange to (Red) All heroes to (Red) 1 hero is normally the same stats differences at the cost of usability.

Is the gap from Tempest to Ullrs any smaller than Ullrs to F-bow? 

(12-03-2020, 08:07 AM)Woody Wrote: I see them as just about the same as reds already just with a buff none uses. 

(13-03-2020, 03:35 AM)Malong Wrote: The progression and antiquation of items is a feature, not a bug, of online RPGs.

ehhh to a player perspective I would agree. You and I see most If not all craftables as "peasant items" but to say the full community should see half of the items in this game as obsolete... My B idea is simple and I don't think It would be that much work to implement. With very simple idea's this does not need to be the case. 

I'm starting to think Light blues could have the same or similar work done to them. Making them usable by all or t3 sounds fun but not sure If I would do much more. You could make all the light blue stuff hero locked (dark blue) then buff the green stuff but that's a mess. You can make some links between Light blues to Dark blues and Oranges to Reds.

Does that change my opinion on my request eh not much? Does make me think A could be asking too much but I think its still a valid idea at this point.     

(13-03-2020, 03:35 AM)Malong Wrote: The concept of increasing by a multiplicative factor of two is misleading. This thread is filled with some great gems. Perfect 5/7.

"is a bit misleading is it not?"

If any company came out and said ye this has 2x the performance/warranty/etc.. without giving the context of what 2x really the company Is normally trying to mislead the public to think of a greater number normally. This is marketing 101 for Apple saying this iPhone is 2x better than the last one. It can be factually true but still misleading without context.  

The difference here is Winter is not selling me anything (at least not yet). This is hence why I said, "just a fun fact as it doesn't really say much on the topic.".

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#57
This part is so good again, it has to come first.

(13-03-2020, 07:44 AM)Woody Wrote:
(12-03-2020, 02:30 PM)Malong Wrote: Holy shit! You don't know how quotes work!

Quoting on a phone properly is a nightmare. I'll take short cuts or ill not do it at all.

Holy fucking shit again! Your reading comprehension level is miserable. I never meant the quote system on a forum, but rather the fact that you repeatedly thought I was the originator of the bolded part:

(11-03-2020, 05:58 PM)Malong Wrote: /sigh, it was never a joke. It was meant to show the absurdity of the post to which I was replying, particularly this: "Each legendary has a baseline[;] I could not care less if [everything] was only 2x ish the price of the house crafting version. I don't care how low prices get but i do care about it going lower than crafting costs."

to which you replied three times thinking we agree when I was typing that it's absurd (meaning I obviously don't agree):

(12-03-2020, 08:07 AM)Woody Wrote:
(11-03-2020, 05:58 PM)Malong Wrote: I don't care how low prices get but i do care about it going lower than crafting costs."

Ye, I agree.

(12-03-2020, 08:07 AM)Woody Wrote: If you view them as the same or similar values I would say this.

I could not care less if [Reds and Oranges] was only 2x ish the price of the house crafting version. I don't care how low prices get but i do care about it going lower than crafting costs.

We agree on that. You suggested somthing should be done.

(12-03-2020, 08:07 AM)Woody Wrote: Put yourself together man and see we agree something should be done.

And for the record, I've never had a problem using the forum quote system on my phone, nor misunderstood what a quotation is four times.
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#58
(13-03-2020, 07:44 AM)Woody Wrote:
(12-03-2020, 03:01 PM)Malong Wrote: I actually searched, but is there an expectation that a thread titled "Hero+" would have related to "gold sinks[s]?" 

It wasn't even that far down if you just searched "gold sink" https://gyazo.com/cc92efd95892802bf0e3a75b52cb33e2

Calling it hero+... The name implying I want better than the hero stats we had... What did you think the cost would be?

The point wasn't where the search result sits in the list, and obviously it would have the text "gold sink" in it if it returned in a text search. But you claim you suggested gold sinks (which multiple players, admins, and devs have brought up at least about three years prior), but instead it's as a side effect of another rejected change. It's like you were "putting a light on" a topic that was already quite well lit.



(13-03-2020, 07:44 AM)Woody Wrote:
(12-03-2020, 03:01 PM)Malong Wrote: If in your years of filing feature requests (this is still overdue), you had ever learned how to submit a clear one, that would help.

[Link]

Who do you think is taking more in this strange relationship. You that likes to point out things sometimes very petty things and have a laugh. Good for you. 

Or me, I like pressing some buttons knowing I'm improving at this skill that I was once heavily lacking in. I'm not the best at writing a request and I never will be but I'm improving. I'm practising on something I feel passionate about being Ni. Also, Its good fun stirring the pot every so offended.

I think we both win or lose as we are here for different things. 

/sigh, this again. It's been 6-7 years (August 2013 to now) and this thread demonstrates your reading comprehension level. Reading regularly for that duration would have been more beneficial, but I guess you're not interested because it's not attached to an electronic form of vapid escapism. Regardless, nobody is falling for it:

Winter Wrote: Cute, but entirely too predictable

(20-12-2017, 06:54 PM)Winter Wrote: [Y]ou aren't some master debater.  You are the only one that thinks that, and I'm just telling you because I think someone has to.

(24-12-2019, 05:33 PM)Malong Wrote: The old "get backed into a corner and type the transparent 'you got played'" again. "Cute but entirely too predictable."



(13-03-2020, 07:44 AM)Woody Wrote:
(12-03-2020, 03:01 PM)Malong Wrote: "Woody committed murder. Don't ask me for proof, that's just petty, just go arrest him, judge him guilty for first degree murder, and sentence him immediately. I'm not doing all of your homework. Ooh ooh ah ah ah."

I gave the evidence I wanted a big gold sink before upgrades as that's all I really need to show. This judge feels biased. 

Assuming what you posted fit that criteria (and I'm disputing it does), your initial stance was:

(12-03-2020, 08:07 AM)Woody Wrote: You can find them yourself because I'm not doing all of your homework. 

To claim otherwise, or that you had tried to argue otherwise at this point in time in the thread is incredibly disingenuous.



(13-03-2020, 07:44 AM)Woody Wrote:
(13-03-2020, 03:35 AM)Malong Wrote: I would argue that's a consequence of the changes, and not strictly the intention. 

So devs make changes to how the game is and Its "not strictly the intention" things may change? What??

The devs can and have made changes to the market. To say It's not strictly the intention leaves me to say what was the main reason upgrades got implemented. 

What? So the primary intention was solely the removal of gold (rather than it being a side effect) and not the introduction of a new tier of items? And you think it was intended for people to have 10+ awakened legendaries, and in some cases (at the time of this post), 40+? Especially when the patch note was:

(29-01-2018, 04:34 AM)Winter Wrote: These items are not meant for everyone to be able to obtain, nor are they something people are supposed to amass.  They are for the few people that want to upgrade specific legendary items they have grown attached to.



(13-03-2020, 07:44 AM)Woody Wrote: I personally see it being a rich tax 1st not so people can have better items... You needed to give the players something for paying so much otherwise its just a tax with no benefit.  

I get the strong feeling you've never paid taxes before in your life. Taxes are required contributions. Players opt into paying the cost of an upgrade, but it's a tax instead of just the cost of the upgrade? Players that are otherwise "rich" but not interested in upgrades do not have to pay anything (again, while taxes are required contributions).



(13-03-2020, 07:44 AM)Woody Wrote:
(13-03-2020, 03:35 AM)Malong Wrote: But if few people want items at a given price and would only pay less for it, how is it possible that this is not the community dictating the price? This seems to lend credence to that idea. In the end, eople don't want to pay the now-inflated prices of these common and non-optimal items.

No, I agree on people make their own prices and trade according. For how they trade, If they trade and what they trade is on the devs. You will be the last person to decide what you will pay and sell for but Its the devs that control how those items came to be. 

Just 1 example, other than upgrades. The devs made the Legendary item week. They could see it would have an effect on the market before making the event. 

Sure, that final decision is influenced (not controlled) by stats, rarity, skins, etc, but in the end, it's decided by the person who wants the item.

Winter Wrote: Maybe we just aren't totalitarian dictators that want to set fixed prices for every item in a game where people's trading experience is often such a huge part of their fun....



(13-03-2020, 07:44 AM)Woody Wrote:
(13-03-2020, 03:35 AM)Malong Wrote: It's clear you didn't search!

This is factually untrue and you know it. All it means is I found the 1st one and didn't go much past it as I didn't think It was necessary given I didn't claim I was the 1st that wanted it.

First, you are trying to take one sentence out of context. Again, you bring up the idea of "uncrafting" from 2016, and if you had searched for "uncrafting" you would have found a thread from 2015 that's titled (cue suspenseful music) "Uncrafting." Either you misrepresented the course of events again, or you didn't understand the entire point:

(12-03-2020, 03:01 PM)Malong Wrote:
(12-03-2020, 08:07 AM)Woody Wrote: We both have the same tool called "Search".

This is a thread from January 8, 2015. Though, I searched for "salvaging" as "uncrafting" is not a word ("quite unnormal"), but searching for "uncrafting" will show this thread too. It's clear you didn't search!

And second, hilariously: you expected me to scroll down a list of many search results for a thread about "gold sinks" titled "Hero+." Yet you are not expected to find a search result about "uncrafting" that is literally titled "Uncrafting" (which is the same as the search term). How hypocritical.



(13-03-2020, 07:44 AM)Woody Wrote: "I did put light on that subject"

You did it again: I pointed out your misused phrase, and you give evidence that you butchered the idiom. You would know this if you would step away from games and read.

(12-03-2020, 03:34 PM)Malong Wrote: Yet again, another Woody-level malapropism ("pull yourself together," amusingly Googling for "put yourself together" even corrects itself to this).

(19-06-2017, 01:11 PM)Malong Wrote: I wasn't asking you for a definition. I put "intelligent guess" in quotes because in English parlance, the phrase is "educated guess." This is further shown by your own screenshot of the definition for the phrase "educated (and not intelligent) guess." I GUESS you didn't pick up on that (get it?).



(13-03-2020, 07:44 AM)Woody Wrote:
(13-03-2020, 03:35 AM)Malong Wrote: Because, yet again, for the most part, orange legendaries are superseded by red legendaries

They are better In stats but usability is another question. Hell for this argument All heroes (Dur) should be less than 1 heroes (Legacy). 

More usability = less normal stats

"Like Ags and Vgs are technically better then Legacy and Dur in usability just no one uses it how it was intended to be used."

For how much Tempest is better than Ullrs for being 1 hero? The same difference applies when you talk about going to F-bow from Ullrs. Going from Orange to (Red) All heroes to (Red) 1 hero is normally the same stats differences at the cost of usability.

Is the gap from Tempest to Ullrs any smaller than Ullrs to F-bow? 

How many logical fallacies can you fit into this thread? This was the original conversation:

(12-03-2020, 03:34 PM)Malong Wrote:
(12-03-2020, 08:07 AM)Woody Wrote: How are Reds worth more than Oranges. See above for my reasoning.

Because, yet again, for the most part, orange legendaries are superseded by red legendaries:

So you want to refute the point that orange legendaries are worth less than red legendaries by comparing usability of two red legendaries. That's just fantastic.

But anyway, here you go: Tempest to Ullrs Bane is not an apples-to-apples comparison. The number of classes that can equip an item is a pointless figure if the distribution of the actual players spec'ing each possible hero is not equal (and it's not): traditionally, Warden was more spec'ed than the other three Archer heroes combined. So you are comparing the best bow for suboptimal and unpopular classes to the best bow for the optimal and the most widely-played class. Furthermore, this is ignoring the fact that Tempest was introduced years after Ullrs Bane. At least compare something like Onyx Bolts and Rending Bolts, where (unlike Warden and Archers) Chosen Marksman never dwarfed the other three Crossbowman heroes.

But anyway, yes, orange items are replaced by red items. And don't bother with some bullshit like there being no red version of Severance because there's no exact red item that is usable by both Legionnaire and Pikeman hero that is a throwing axe. This should not have be spoonfed to anybody: the replacement does not have to be a 1:1 correspondence. If you are a Legionnaire, Malice and Glory are better. If you are a Pikeman hero, Volcanic Daggers and Twigs are better. Severance is obsolete.



(12-03-2020, 08:07 AM)Woody Wrote: I see them as just about the same as reds already just with a buff none uses. 

And if few players choose that alleged "buff," then it doesn't have much utility nor value. They are budget (and that's my nice way of saying "bad") items in a mature mod with many copies of the best items available. Don't settle for less unless you're a player that has only played something like 3 months. You will never impose your "b-b-but, it can be used by more classes, so it should be worth more!" mentality on me and many others because we see the truth that it's a dumb argument.



(13-03-2020, 07:44 AM)Woody Wrote:
(13-03-2020, 03:35 AM)Malong Wrote: The progression and antiquation of items is a feature, not a bug, of online RPGs.

ehhh to a player perspective I would agree. You and I see most If not all craftables as "peasant items" but to say the full community should see half of the items in this game as obsolete... My B idea is simple and I don't think It would be that much work to implement. With very simple idea's this does not need to be the case. 

I'm starting to think Light blues could have the same or similar work done to them. Making them usable by all or t3 sounds fun but not sure If I would do much more. You could make all the light blue stuff hero locked (dark blue) then buff the green stuff but that's a mess. You can make some links between Light blues to Dark blues and Oranges to Reds.

I don't believe I ever called them "peasant items" or anything to that effect. In my viewpoint, it's bad for the community to unload items that won't hold their value to get gold out of new players, when those new players should be using their gold to get better items that will last longer for them. Instead, I advise players to only craft and acquire house crafted items that are used in recipes of awakened legendaries, so the player doesn't take too much of a loss if or when they get better gear.

As for calling the items obsolete: well, they are. And that's not me imposing my viewpoint on others, it's a viewpoint that many people independently conclude. If orange legendaries and light blue items were usable by Tier 3 characters, I would still consider them to be bad and not advise anyone from acquiring the vast majority of them outside looting. What happens when that player gets to Hero? Congratulations, you're a Hero equipped with something that has been replaced. Good job!



(13-03-2020, 07:44 AM)Woody Wrote:
(13-03-2020, 03:35 AM)Malong Wrote: The concept of increasing by a multiplicative factor of two is misleading. This thread is filled with some great gems. Perfect 5/7.

"is a bit misleading is it not?"

If any company came out and said ye this has 2x the performance/warranty/etc.. without giving the context of what 2x really the company Is normally trying to mislead the public to think of a greater number normally. This is marketing 101 for Apple saying this iPhone is 2x better than the last one. It can be factually true but still misleading without context.  

The difference here is Winter is not selling me anything (at least not yet). This is hence why I said, "just a fun fact as it doesn't really say much on the topic.".

No, we already knew the chances are low, and that devs are not willing to reveal exact figures. And that kind of marketing only works because the median person has such a bad grasp of math and logic.
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#59
(13-03-2020, 04:10 PM)Malong Wrote: The point wasn't where the search result sits in the list, and obviously it would have the text "gold sink" in it if it returned in a text search. But you claim you suggested gold sinks (which multiple players, admins, and devs have brought up at least about three years prior), but instead it's as a side effect of another rejected change. It's like you were "putting a light on" a topic that was already quite well lit.

I'm slowly getting tired of saying the same stuff. I never claimed I was the 1st to come up with the idea of we need a big gold sink. You could have a few threads before me but I could not care less when It's not my point and never has been my point. 

If I had to play this game..., go show me a thread that's as close as that is to upgrades that reference one of the positives as a gold sink. Could be 1 or 2 or 500 out there sure but I could not care less when It's never has been my point.

Looking at it again I didn't notice that Terath did edit my thread for some reason long before It was locked. Does that say anything? No, not really but it shows at least 1 dev went back to the thread about 14 days later for some reason when nothing changed. (Yes it's a joke)


(12-03-2020, 03:01 PM)Malong Wrote: /sigh, this again. It's been 6-7 years (August 2013 to now) and this thread demonstrates your reading comprehension level. Reading regularly for that duration would have been more beneficial, but I guess you're not interested because it's not attached to an electronic form of vapid escapism. Regardless, nobody is falling for it:

Once an upon a time I enjoyed how meta this was. Even reading this will not change your mind. That's how meta this is.

You can be somewhat understanding (to some extent) and showing I have some problems. I do have some small problems, however... Then simultaneously saying I can't get better at with practice. I still enjoy this to some extent as it makes me laugh on how someone can be so hypocritical yet dismissive. "Reading regularly" the way you put It sounds like you believe everyone can and does learn the same way. I do read more than you think but to say "read a book" would help is once again hypocritical.

Some people learn better in theory and some people learn better at prac. Some between that and others neither as they have found a different way. I know what works best for me over the year and years of trying different things. Go look at a thread I made In 2014 or whatever. I have not become even avg In some things but I've improved so much that I'm almost happy at where I'm at.

For you to imply you now better is extremely superficial when everyone knows to some extent people improve using different methods. What works for you chances are will not work for me. I wish it was the case but life is not that easy.   



(13-03-2020, 03:35 AM)Malong Wrote: What? So the primary intention was solely the removal of gold (rather than it being a side effect) and not the introduction of a new tier of items? And you think it was intended for people to have 10+ awakened legendaries, and in some cases (at the time of this post), 40+? Especially when the patch note was:

(29-01-2018, 04:34 AM)Winter Wrote: These items are not meant for everyone to be able to obtain, nor are they something people are supposed to amass.  They are for the few people that want to upgrade specific legendary items they have grown attached to.

I'm sure what Winter said was probably said about house craftables or at lest normal legendaries at one point as well. I'm sure that comment was not meant to age well otherwise me and you would probably be paying more for upgrades already or something else. 

To start did we really want one more tier of items? I remember Nka and I were talking about if upgrades never came Its possible we could have gotten everything. That was Nka's goal after all before upgrades came but once upgrades came both of us jumped making upgrades that day. So... to say we wanted better stats is true and I'm not going to argue that. Everyone wants better gear no shit. 

In 1-2 years time If Ni Is still going what do you want Ni to be? Would you be happy if we got a new tier above upgrades...? It's possible... I don't want It to be the case but looking at the market I feel like we have similar but opposite problems before upgrades came. Were gold was "not wanted at all" now some items are not wanted at all.

The question Is did the community want there to be better items out there more than It wanted a fix for gold. People like me in 2017 made trades like 60m gold + (70m items at the time) for 1 item being Typhoon. Gold was "worthless" to the point asking for a few extra mill on trades was almost guaranteed. Gold problems, In general, affect everyone as we all have the same income being... gold... This is hence why when I say If gold is wanted so badly for upgrades it affects everyone. 

If they wanted to make a new tier of items more then they wanted to fix the gold problem the fix would not be what It is today and what It was at the time. 1st round of upgrades we got 100-150m gold out of the market vs getting not even 10 upgrades out of it. What affected the market more It being a massive gold sink or legendaries not being number 1 anymore. 

To say the primary intention was solely so the 1% could get better items is dismissive when the gold problem affected everyone.


(13-03-2020, 03:35 AM)Malong Wrote: I get the strong feeling you've never paid taxes before in your life. Taxes are required contributions. Players opt into paying the cost of an upgrade, but it's a tax instead of just the cost of the upgrade? Players that are otherwise "rich" but not interested in upgrades do not have to pay anything (again, while taxes are required contributions).

I have many times and its not that hard if you get all you need beforehand. If you are organised and prepared it's not hard.

No idea how different it is for you but In Au I can do it in a few hours If I have everything ready and the site does not crash like it did last time... A bit like how upgrades are easier if you have what's needed before you decide to make one. 

I used the example of a tax as like I said to Disco on week one of upgrades "I could probably keep my gold and be better off within a year". If you don't believe I said that well I did it with Vlka's gold and got some nice stuff with it. Got an Elegy for 3m gold etc... The point is even if you don't craft an upgrade what is that gold doing? If you use it in a trade It will In time be put into a gold sink or go into an account that doesn't use it for anything. 

Upgradings being a rich tax is just an easy way to explain this or at least I think so. If the rich want gold for upgrades chances everyone will want gold to buy what the rich are not using. Right now a lot of orange and red legendaries are getting looted then being quickly sold on Ah for that nice gold. I don't have a problem with the idea of that but I do when It's to this scale. 

The upgrade update benefited Ni in full more than the 1%. The 1% just got a tax they are willing to pay or look into paying as they would want the end result. Should I call that a tax probably not but not sure of a better word... Got any?


(12-03-2020, 03:01 PM)Malong Wrote: And second, hilariously: you expected me to scroll down a list of many search results for a thread about "gold sinks" titled "Hero+." Yet you are not expected to find a search result about "uncrafting" that is literally titled "Uncrafting" (which is the same as the search term). How hypocritical.

The difference being I didn't expect you to even look or care in the 1st place given I didn't remember how petty you can be. 

If I was looking for evidence of you wanting a gold sink before upgrades (as that's all I claimed). I would start end of 2017 and type "gold sink". By this logic, my thread would have been one of the 1st to come up and me being the thread creator is a bonus. That thread is all I needed to prove my cases. Like I said If you want more info you could find it. 

God look at what I said. "I would read this post If anything [Link] I suggested uncrafting all the way back In 2016 and Its probably been suggested before that. At least 1 dev probably still likes the idea."

-It's not hypocritical 
-It never claimed I was the 1st I even said that on the post. 
-It was more Winters reply then my post I wanted you to look given that the post I link and not my own. 
-It may give you an idea of how he may still feel on the topic. 

As we don't have uncrafting it's either to much work or something the devs don't want to do. This is hence why I have 3 ideas on this thread to give the best chance for really anything to happen. 

As I said I don't care what happens I just want something to happen. 



(12-03-2020, 03:34 PM)Malong Wrote: But anyway, here you go: Tempest to Ullrs Bane is not an apples-to-apples comparison. The number of classes that can equip an item is a pointless figure if the distribution of the actual players spec'ing each possible hero is not equal (and it's not): traditionally, Warden was more spec'ed than the other three Archer heroes combined. So you are comparing the best bow for suboptimal and unpopular classes to the best bow for the optimal and the most widely-played class. Furthermore, this is ignoring the fact that Tempest was introduced years after Ullrs Bane. At least compare something like Onyx Bolts and Rending Bolts, where (unlike Warden and Archers) Chosen Marksman never dwarfed the other three Crossbowman heroes.

But anyway, yes, orange items are replaced by red items. And don't bother with some bullshit like there being no red version of Severance because there's no exact red item that is usable by both Legionnaire and Pikeman hero that is a throwing axe. This should not have be spoonfed to anybody: the replacement does not have to be a 1:1 correspondence. If you are a Legionnaire, Malice and Glory are better. If you are a Pikeman hero, Volcanic Daggers and Twigs are better. Severance is obsolete.

Ummm. 
For how viable and optimal heroes are has nothing to do with my example. 
For when items are added has nothing to do with my example. 
For what items are valued has nothing to do with my example. 
For when items came out has nothing to do with my example. 

This is a straw man argument or you don't understand it. 

I used bows as my example as they have only a few stats that change between them. The only thing that changes is +3p +2 missile speed and + 5 Accuracy and who can use them.

[Image: fc3d3e4e99b16ee026ac2374113bf040.png]


You do gain something going from Tempest to Ullr's that being usability... It may be not a cost you would be willing to take as It's subjective. It's still valued in the system just as much as Tempest. Unless Winter wants to tell me 1 hero locked items are the rarest.

You do gain something going from Ullr's to F-bow that being usability... It may be not a cost you would be willing to take as It's subjective. The defiance here is this "I see them as just about the same as reds already just with a buff none uses." That point can't be argued with. Orange legendaries are clearly better than reds at something.    

Do we...

A. Buff the stats and take away their usability that made them clearly better at something than all other items. This would give people more options in terms of items given how much people still like all hero reds. 

B. Embrace this usability and buff It to the point a new playstyle is viable. It wouldn't be optimal but it will not be obsolete likey they are now.  Maybe the devs could turn back on this train of thought [Link] given people before did like playing Hybrids.

C. Give away for plays to trade in the items they just got. [Link] The market is not fun right now and It's not looking like its slowing down if anything its getting worse every day. 

We have the loots from 2012 but we don't have those players anymore. The market has no way to get rid of some items and a lot of games like this give the players the option to "uncraft" or trade-in at a cost for something else.

As I said I don't care what happens I just want something to happen. 

To say Severance is obsolete is subjective even now. It should be better than Db If you rather axes for some reason. If you say its Db is objectively better then you would agree with me It probably needs a buff otherwise Db a nerf. 

Making It red as I implied would put It on line with Twigs. It would be subjective to say Twigs are better than a Severance because if you say its objectively better then you would agree with me It probably needs a buff otherwise Twigs a nerf. 



(13-03-2020, 03:35 AM)Malong Wrote: And if few players choose that alleged "buff," then it doesn't have much utility nor value. 

Subjective. When a new player loots let say a Legacy but still wants to go Zwei It's subjective to say the only option is to keep it. 

Players make this choice every day and there is no right answer. 


(13-03-2020, 03:35 AM)Malong Wrote: I don't believe I ever called them "peasant items" or anything to that effect. In my viewpoint, it's bad for the community to unload items that won't hold their value to get gold out of new players, when those new players should be using their gold to get better items that will last longer for them. Instead, I advise players to only craft and acquire house crafted items that are used in recipes of awakened legendaries, so the player doesn't take too much of a loss if or when they get better gear.

As for calling the items obsolete: well, they are. And that's not me imposing my viewpoint on others, it's a viewpoint that many people independently conclude. If orange legendaries and light blue items were usable by Tier 3 characters, I would still consider them to be bad and not advise anyone from acquiring the vast majority of them outside looting. What happens when that player gets to Hero? Congratulations, you're a Hero equipped with something that has been replaced. Good job!

I was the one to call them peasant items In an event. More of an old joke for the people that may remember.

Grate you advise players what to craft and what to buy. Nice. 

What about the older people with craftables none wants? What about when anyone loots anything most of Ni does not want or need? 

I would advise players to do what they feel like. I'll tell them what's more optimal but if they enjoy something I'll say "Well that's an option." This is a game, after all, some people find it fun to be as optimal as they can all the time and others just want to do something a bit more different.   

Playstyle is subjective (as long as you are going by the rules you a good). I'll tell people how to be optimal but I'm not going to stop them from doing what they want. How you play and what you play is up to you and only you. 

Devs know that as they give us options not just in heroes but in items as well. Right now I have Upgraded Dur, Upgraded Scorn, Upgraded Moj, Upgraded Pride, ... I can't tell you what one I like to use the most as It changes day to day. Almost none plays 100% optimal as I can see you do have a Jugg for some reason.

If I and others want to play as Hybrids that's up to us not you or even the Devs to some extent. The Dev's have made it harder to play given they lowed the possible stats you could have but also they took away the usability legendaries and other items had. The (B) request Is simple as It just roles back to how it was with maybe some changes. 

Nothing will change for those that don't want to use those items after the update other than... If you have an orange item more people will want them. For those that do well now, it became more viable not optimal but viable to play as a Tr3 + Tr3 + Tr1.

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#60
(14-03-2020, 08:25 AM)Woody Wrote:
(13-03-2020, 04:10 PM)Malong Wrote: The point wasn't where the search result sits in the list, and obviously it would have the text "gold sink" in it if it returned in a text search. But you claim you suggested gold sinks (which multiple players, admins, and devs have brought up at least about three years prior), but instead it's as a side effect of another rejected change. It's like you were "putting a light on" a topic that was already quite well lit.

I'm slowly getting tired of saying the same stuff. I never claimed I was the 1st to come up with the idea of we need a big gold sink. You could have a few threads before me but I could not care less when It's not my point and never has been my point. 

If I had to play this game..., go show me a thread that's as close as that is to upgrades that reference one of the positives as a gold sink. Could be 1 or 2 or 500 out there sure but I could not care less when It's never has been my point.

Looking at it again I didn't notice that Terath did edit my thread for some reason long before It was locked. Does that say anything? No, not really but it shows at least 1 dev went back to the thread about 14 days later for some reason when nothing changed. (Yes it's a joke)

/facepalm. It's not about being first. But you claim you "put a light on the subject" that was already well understood. Think about that: you clarified something that was already clear.



(14-03-2020, 08:25 AM)Woody Wrote:
(12-03-2020, 03:01 PM)Malong Wrote: /sigh, this again. It's been 6-7 years (August 2013 to now) and this thread demonstrates your reading comprehension level. Reading regularly for that duration would have been more beneficial, but I guess you're not interested because it's not attached to an electronic form of vapid escapism. Regardless, nobody is falling for it:

Once an upon a time I enjoyed how meta this was. Even reading this will not change your mind. That's how meta this is.

You can be somewhat understanding (to some extent) and showing I have some problems. I do have some small problems, however... Then simultaneously saying I can't get better at with practice. I still enjoy this to some extent as it makes me laugh on how someone can be so hypocritical yet dismissive. "Reading regularly" the way you put It sounds like you believe everyone can and does learn the same way. I do read more than you think but to say "read a book" would help is once again hypocritical.

Some people learn better in theory and some people learn better at prac. Some between that and others neither as they have found a different way. I know what works best for me over the year and years of trying different things. Go look at a thread I made In 2014 or whatever. I have not become even avg In some things but I've improved so much that I'm almost happy at where I'm at.

For you to imply you now better is extremely superficial when everyone knows to some extent people improve using different methods. What works for you chances are will not work for me. I wish it was the case but life is not that easy.   

Do you think you're the only person I've ever encountered with a learning disability? The difference is those others work harder, admit their mistakes and don't use it as a crutch to excuse their behavior, don't dig deeper holes when proven to be objectively incorrect, don't rationalize their behavior, don't have anti-intellectual attitudes, don't pretend they were trolling when backed into a corner, etc. And anyway, I didn't even state you couldn't get better with practice.



(14-03-2020, 08:25 AM)Woody Wrote:
(13-03-2020, 03:35 AM)Malong Wrote: What? So the primary intention was solely the removal of gold (rather than it being a side effect) and not the introduction of a new tier of items? And you think it was intended for people to have 10+ awakened legendaries, and in some cases (at the time of this post), 40+? Especially when the patch note was:

(29-01-2018, 04:34 AM)Winter Wrote: These items are not meant for everyone to be able to obtain, nor are they something people are supposed to amass.  They are for the few people that want to upgrade specific legendary items they have grown attached to.

I'm sure what Winter said was probably said about house craftables or at lest normal legendaries at one point as well. I'm sure that comment was not meant to age well otherwise me and you would probably be paying more for upgrades already or something else.

I did pay more, e.g. 35 million and a King's Will for Raging Tempest.

(14-03-2020, 08:25 AM)Woody Wrote: To start did we really want one more tier of items? I remember Nka and I were talking about if upgrades never came Its possible we could have gotten everything. That was Nka's goal after all before upgrades came but once upgrades came both of us jumped making upgrades that day. So... to say we wanted better stats is true and I'm not going to argue that. Everyone wants better gear no shit. 

Derp, moving the goalposts forward is how games survive.



(14-03-2020, 08:25 AM)Woody Wrote: In 1-2 years time If Ni Is still going what do you want Ni to be? Would you be happy if we got a new tier above upgrades...? It's possible... I don't want It to be the case but looking at the market I feel like we have similar but opposite problems before upgrades came. Were gold was "not wanted at all" now some items are not wanted at all.

The question Is did the community want there to be better items out there more than It wanted a fix for gold. People like me in 2017 made trades like 60m gold + (70m items at the time) for 1 item being Typhoon. Gold was "worthless" to the point asking for a few extra mill on trades was almost guaranteed. Gold problems, In general, affect everyone as we all have the same income being... gold... This is hence why when I say If gold is wanted so badly for upgrades it affects everyone. 

If they wanted to make a new tier of items more then they wanted to fix the gold problem the fix would not be what It is today and what It was at the time. 1st round of upgrades we got 100-150m gold out of the market vs getting not even 10 upgrades out of it. What affected the market more It being a massive gold sink or legendaries not being number 1 anymore. 

To say the primary intention was solely so the 1% could get better items is dismissive when the gold problem affected everyone.

What? Are you trying to state that upgrades were introduced primarily to be a gold sink and not primarily for the stated purpose of upgrading them?



(14-03-2020, 08:25 AM)Woody Wrote:
(13-03-2020, 03:35 AM)Malong Wrote: I get the strong feeling you've never paid taxes before in your life. Taxes are required contributions. Players opt into paying the cost of an upgrade, but it's a tax instead of just the cost of the upgrade? Players that are otherwise "rich" but not interested in upgrades do not have to pay anything (again, while taxes are required contributions).
...
Upgradings being a rich tax is just an easy way to explain this or at least I think so. If the rich want gold for upgrades chances everyone will want gold to buy what the rich are not using. Right now a lot of orange and red legendaries are getting looted then being quickly sold on Ah for that nice gold. I don't have a problem with the idea of that but I do when It's to this scale. 

The upgrade update benefited Ni in full more than the 1%. The 1% just got a tax they are willing to pay or look into paying as they would want the end result. Should I call that a tax probably not but not sure of a better word... Got any?

I have many times and its not that hard if you get all you need beforehand. If you are organised and prepared it's not hard.

No idea how different it is for you but In Au I can do it in a few hours If I have everything ready and the site does not crash like it did last time... A bit like how upgrades are easier if you have what's needed before you decide to make one. 

What the hell are you talking about? I never stated it was difficult. The simple point is that upgrades are optional, while taxes are compulsory. So how can the cost of said optional task be a tax?

(14-03-2020, 08:25 AM)Woody Wrote: I used the example of a tax as like I said to Disco on week one of upgrades "I could probably keep my gold and be better off within a year". If you don't believe I said that well I did it with Vlka's gold and got some nice stuff with it. Got an Elegy for 3m gold etc... The point is even if you don't craft an upgrade what is that gold doing? If you use it in a trade It will In time be put into a gold sink or go into an account that doesn't use it for anything. 

Brool story co.



(14-03-2020, 08:25 AM)Woody Wrote:
(12-03-2020, 03:01 PM)Malong Wrote: And second, hilariously: you expected me to scroll down a list of many search results for a thread about "gold sinks" titled "Hero+." Yet you are not expected to find a search result about "uncrafting" that is literally titled "Uncrafting" (which is the same as the search term). How hypocritical.

The difference being I didn't expect you to even look or care in the 1st place given I didn't remember how petty you can be. 

If I was looking for evidence of you wanting a gold sink before upgrades (as that's all I claimed). I would start end of 2017 and type "gold sink". By this logic, my thread would have been one of the 1st to come up and me being the thread creator is a bonus. That thread is all I needed to prove my cases. Like I said If you want more info you could find it. 

Except I stated quite plainly that I searched:

(12-03-2020, 03:01 PM)Malong Wrote: I actually searched, but is there an expectation that a thread titled "Hero+" would have related to "gold sinks[s]?"



(14-03-2020, 08:25 AM)Woody Wrote: God look at what I said. "I would read this post If anything [Link] I suggested uncrafting all the way back In 2016 and Its probably been suggested before that. At least 1 dev probably still likes the idea."

That's the point though. You want me to search and read a thread with a completely unrelated title:

(13-03-2020, 07:44 AM)Woody Wrote:
(12-03-2020, 03:01 PM)Malong Wrote: I actually searched, but is there an expectation that a thread titled "Hero+" would have related to "gold sinks[s]?" 

It wasn't even that far down if you just searched "gold sink" https://gyazo.com/cc92efd95892802bf0e3a75b52cb33e2

Calling it hero+... The name implying I want better than the hero stats we had... What did you think the cost would be? 

But you couldn't find a thread titled "Uncrafting" when the search term would have been "uncrafting:"

(12-03-2020, 03:01 PM)Malong Wrote: You did it again: giving yourself rope long enough to hang yourself. This is one of your earlier points:

(12-03-2020, 08:07 AM)Woody Wrote: We both have the same tool called "Search".

This is a thread from January 8, 2015. Though, I searched for "salvaging" as "uncrafting" is not a word ("quite unnormal"), but searching for "uncrafting" will show this thread too. It's clear you didn't search!

Your only out here is that you searched for "uncrafting," but didn't look for the thread called "Uncrafting" but you expect others to search for "gold sink" and find a thread called "Hero+." That's the hypocrisy. Do you get it yet?



(13-03-2020, 07:44 AM)Woody Wrote:
(12-03-2020, 03:34 PM)Malong Wrote: But anyway, here you go: Tempest to Ullrs Bane is not an apples-to-apples comparison. The number of classes that can equip an item is a pointless figure if the distribution of the actual players spec'ing each possible hero is not equal (and it's not): traditionally, Warden was more spec'ed than the other three Archer heroes combined. So you are comparing the best bow for suboptimal and unpopular classes to the best bow for the optimal and the most widely-played class. Furthermore, this is ignoring the fact that Tempest was introduced years after Ullrs Bane. At least compare something like Onyx Bolts and Rending Bolts, where (unlike Warden and Archers) Chosen Marksman never dwarfed the other three Crossbowman heroes.

But anyway, yes, orange items are replaced by red items. And don't bother with some bullshit like there being no red version of Severance because there's no exact red item that is usable by both Legionnaire and Pikeman hero that is a throwing axe. This should not have be spoonfed to anybody: the replacement does not have to be a 1:1 correspondence. If you are a Legionnaire, Malice and Glory are better. If you are a Pikeman hero, Volcanic Daggers and Twigs are better. Severance is obsolete.

Ummm. 
For how viable and optimal heroes are has nothing to do with my example. 
For when items are added has nothing to do with my example. 
For when items came out has nothing to do with my example. 

This is a straw man argument or you don't understand it. 

Why do I have to explain this to you. You asked why orange items are worth less than red items. People answered you. You tried to contradict that by comparing two red items. Good job. You tried to tell us that flexibilty should make Ullrs Bane worth more than it is. But the fact that it can be used by more classes is not particularly useful when those other classes aren't widely played, and thus Ullrs Bane has a lower target market. The best item for a non-optimal class is not valued as highly as a more narrow but better item for the best class. This is a feature, not a bug.

(13-03-2020, 07:44 AM)Woody Wrote: For what items are valued has nothing to do with my example. 

So you brought up the original question and it's irrelevant to this topic? Good job:

(12-03-2020, 08:07 AM)Woody Wrote: How are Reds worth more than Oranges[?]



(13-03-2020, 07:44 AM)Woody Wrote: I used bows as my example as they have only a few stats that change between them. The only thing that changes is +3p +2 missile speed and + 5 Accuracy and who can use them.

[Image: fc3d3e4e99b16ee026ac2374113bf040.png]


You do gain something going from Tempest to Ullr's that being usability... It may be not a cost you would be willing to take as It's subjective. It's still valued in the system just as much as Tempest. Unless Winter wants to tell me 1 hero locked items are the rarest.

You do gain something going from Ullr's to F-bow that being usability... It may be not a cost you would be willing to take as It's subjective. The defiance here is this "I see them as just about the same as reds already just with a buff none uses." That point can't be argued with. Orange legendaries are clearly better than reds at something.    

And again, it's better at "something," but that "something" isn't valued by much of the community. So what's the usefulness of this flexibility? Though it is funny envisioning a scenario of someone trying to claim "b-b-but, you can use it on your Sentinel, Sentry, and Ranger too!" and someone else replying "but I don't have those classes because I made the reasonable choice and have a Warden instead!"



(13-03-2020, 07:44 AM)Woody Wrote: Do we...

A. Buff the stats and take away their usability that made them clearly better at something than all other items. This would give people more options in terms of items given how much people still like all hero reds. 

B. Embrace this usability and buff It to the point a new playstyle is viable. It wouldn't be optimal but it will not be obsolete likey they are now.  Maybe the devs could turn back on this train of thought [Link] given people before did like playing Hybrids.

Start with "why should anything be done?" And even if this was "a problem" is this a problem for all that many people, and what value does implementing anything really deliver? If something should be done, was there a better and different alternative?

Why do all items have to have a place in optimal builds? So their owners can try to maximize "profit" by unloading these items? I really doubt people are looking forward to the day where they can use currently-bad items, so let's not pretend this is for altruism towards people that have orange items.



(13-03-2020, 07:44 AM)Woody Wrote: C. Give away for plays to trade in the items they just got. [Link] The market is not fun right now and It's not looking like its slowing down if anything its getting worse every day. 

I think what you mean is "trying to get as much as I can out of someone for an obsolete item is getting more difficult." People loot bad items, they deal with it instead of crying about the market not being "fun."



(13-03-2020, 07:44 AM)Woody Wrote: To say Severance is obsolete is subjective even now. It should be better than Db If you rather axes for some reason. If you say its Db is objectively better then you would agree with me It probably needs a buff otherwise Db a nerf. 

I never brought up DB. But sure, let's suppose it's better than DB; cool, now it's better than a different obsolete item. Why bother comparing them? And for the record, they're both obsolete, so you may as well ask if I would rather have a pile of human shit, a pile of dog shit, or neither. I pick neither.

(13-03-2020, 07:44 AM)Woody Wrote: Making It red as I implied would put It on line with Twigs. It would be subjective to say Twigs are better than a Severance because if you say its objectively better then you would agree with me It probably needs a buff otherwise Twigs a nerf. 

And if you set Severance's text to red without accompanying stat changes, it's still worse. I didn't see any option for "buff all orange legendaries' stats." And no, just because another item is better does not mean its budget alternatives need to be improved. It was meant to be a budget option (and be worse) all along.



(13-03-2020, 07:44 AM)Woody Wrote:
(13-03-2020, 03:35 AM)Malong Wrote: And if few players choose that alleged "buff," then it doesn't have much utility nor value. 

Subjective.

Sure, but again: if the advantage isn't desired over just having better stats, then the flexibility is not valued highly. The community has decided these "buffs" (and it's a trait, not a buff) is not all that useful by not wanting to acquire those items. You can claim otherwise, but if this wasn't true, this "problem" (and it's not really a problem) and thread wouldn't exist.

(13-03-2020, 07:44 AM)Woody Wrote: When a new player loots let say a Legacy but still wants to go Zwei It's subjective to say the only option is to keep it. 

Players make this choice every day and there is no right answer. 

What?



(13-03-2020, 07:44 AM)Woody Wrote:
(13-03-2020, 03:35 AM)Malong Wrote: I don't believe I ever called them "peasant items" or anything to that effect. In my viewpoint, it's bad for the community to unload items that won't hold their value to get gold out of new players, when those new players should be using their gold to get better items that will last longer for them. Instead, I advise players to only craft and acquire house crafted items that are used in recipes of awakened legendaries, so the player doesn't take too much of a loss if or when they get better gear.

As for calling the items obsolete: well, they are. And that's not me imposing my viewpoint on others, it's a viewpoint that many people independently conclude. If orange legendaries and light blue items were usable by Tier 3 characters, I would still consider them to be bad and not advise anyone from acquiring the vast majority of them outside looting. What happens when that player gets to Hero? Congratulations, you're a Hero equipped with something that has been replaced. Good job!

I was the one to call them peasant items In an event. More of an old joke for the people that may remember.

Great, don't include me then:

(13-03-2020, 07:44 AM)Woody Wrote: You and I see most If not all craftables as "peasant items"



(13-03-2020, 07:44 AM)Woody Wrote: Grate you advise players what to craft and what to buy. Nice. 

They ask me, and I choose to tell them what's best for their time instead of using it as an opportunity to try to unload items that are undesirable.

(13-03-2020, 07:44 AM)Woody Wrote: What about the older people with craftables none wants? What about when anyone loots anything most of Ni does not want or need?

The "game experience may change over time" and other such disclaimers have existed for decades for a reason.



(13-03-2020, 07:44 AM)Woody Wrote: I would advise players to do what they feel like. I'll tell them what's more optimal but if they enjoy something I'll say "Well that's an option." This is a game, after all, some people find it fun to be as optimal as they can all the time and others just want to do something a bit more different.

Playstyle is subjective (as long as you are going by the rules you a good). I'll tell people how to be optimal but I'm not going to stop them from doing what they want. How you play and what you play is up to you and only you.

"What about the newer players that got tricked into acquiring craftables [no one] wants?"



(13-03-2020, 07:44 AM)Woody Wrote: If I and others want to play as Hybrids that's up to us not you or even the Devs to some extent. The Dev's have made it harder to play given they lowed the possible stats you could have but also they took away the usability legendaries and other items had. The (B) request Is simple as It just roles back to how it was with maybe some changes.

And nobody ever claimed otherwise...

(13-03-2020, 07:44 AM)Woody Wrote: Nothing will change for those that don't want to use those items after the update other than... If you have an orange item more people will want them. For those that do well now, it became more viable not optimal but viable to play as a Tr3 + Tr3 + Tr1.

But the main reason seems to be your e-shekels. No thanks.
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