Halberdier Change

[Maroon]

Another person with a less than well thought out argument.  By your own reasoning you say that Halberdier would then outclass Legionnaire with "with better shielding, better throwing, and stronger melee weapons, at the cost of some armor".

Legionnaire       
1H 240
2H 185
PS 8

Halberdier
1H 130
2H 120
PS 7

You have no argument.  Halberdier is a better thrower and they clearly should be and while they outclass the Legionnaire in WPF they only have 1 more Power Throw.  Legionnaire also has access to some of the best armor in the entire game.  Halberdier has access to a crafted with 60 armor. Lol. 60.  They also have access to EFS I believe which is better.

I say lets try it.  It isn't as big a change as people are making it out to be.  I don't understand the blowback and yet it is completely acceptable bar nothing that Pavise can shield with 9 and then step off the line with a Bolt Tosser and 1 shot Rag mode enemies.  That is silly.

I'd appreciate it if you could cut back on the ad hominem somewhat. I said stronger melee weapons, not better melee proficiency. Polearms outclass one handed weapons in almost every situation, you can even use shields with them in some cases, although the polearm itself is pretty useless when you do, and are pretty much tied to two handed weaponry (more damage and reach against speed).

Whether Pavise is too powerful or not is a different debate. The combination of good shielding and shooting is indeed very powerful, and I think it is the strongest Hero class out there. I do not think, however, that simply its existence is a reason for the Halberdier to be buffed to equal levels.

Again, I agree the Halberdier could do with a buff. This would be overdoing it imo.

[Irolltwenties]

[quote author=Bearstronaut link=topic=37001.msg212095#msg212095 date=1419183168]

Another person with a less than well thought out argument.  By your own reasoning you say that Halberdier would then outclass Legionnaire with "with better shielding, better throwing, and stronger melee weapons, at the cost of some armor".

Legionnaire       
1H 240
2H 185
PS 8

Halberdier
1H 130
2H 120
PS 7

You have no argument.  Halberdier is a better thrower and they clearly should be and while they outclass the Legionnaire in WPF they only have 1 more Power Throw.  Legionnaire also has access to some of the best armor in the entire game.  Halberdier has access to a crafted with 60 armor. Lol. 60.  They also have access to EFS I believe which is better.

I say lets try it.  It isn't as big a change as people are making it out to be.  I don't understand the blowback and yet it is completely acceptable bar nothing that Pavise can shield with 9 and then step off the line with a Bolt Tosser and 1 shot Rag mode enemies.  That is silly.

I'd appreciate it if you could cut back on the ad hominem somewhat. I said stronger melee weapons, not better melee proficiency. Polearms outclass one handed weapons in almost every situation, you can even use shields with them in some cases, although the polearm itself is pretty useless when you do, and are pretty much tied to two handed weaponry (more damage and reach against speed).

Whether Pavise is too powerful or not is a different debate. The combination of good shielding and shooting is indeed very powerful, and I think it is the strongest Hero class out there. I do not think, however, that simply its existence is a reason for the Halberdier to be buffed to equal levels.

Again, I agree the Halberdier could do with a buff. This would be overdoing it imo.
[/quote]

So now you feel personally attacked?  I really am not trying to be rude, I'm interested in the debate.  If you feel personally attacked then that's your problem.  I understand that it's hard to understand tone over the internet.  But again, your problem, and maybe this discussion isn't for you.  You are also misapplying the term in my mind because I haven't said a word about anyone personally, only their reasoning and arguments.  That's what a debate is.  I feel like you're being overly sensitive.

In regards to your melee weapon argument I won't even address it because that's even sillier than what I originally understood you to mean.  Durendal > Naval Glaive (Corrected).  Mjolnir > Pike of Kings.  No argument.

I would like to see a Dev weigh in on this.  I'm curious as to what the people who code the mod actually think.  It would also give us some direction to the argument as well.  Is it even worth continuing?

[Mr.Peso]

But can you please tell me why it would make sense to give a class with shit 1H ability and shit armor exceptionally high shield skill?
There's just no synergy in your idea.
I'd much rather prefer the Halberdier to get some more melee and ranged power or better crafteable armor options than just giving it some random ability.

Btw: Comparing Polearms with Twohands and just saying one or the other is better is bullshit.
Mjolnir is much shorter than a Pike of Kings and has a completely different area of use.
Also taking a Dragon Halberd as counterpart to a Durendal is pretty silly since the Naval Glaive behaves much more similar than the sword and actually does more damage.

[Irolltwenties]

But can you please tell me why it would make sense to give a class with shit 1H ability and shit armor exceptionally high shield skill?
There's just no synergy in your idea.
I'd much rather prefer the Halberdier to get some more melee and ranged power or better crafteable armor options than just giving it some random ability.

Btw: Comparing Polearms with Twohands and just saying one or the other is better is bullshit.
Mjolnir is much shorter than a Pike of Kings and has a completely different area of use.
Also taking a Dragon Halberd as counterpart to a Durendal is pretty silly since the Naval Glaive behaves much more similar than the sword and actually does more damage.

It wasn't my argument it was his.  I was just refuting it.  I also made a correction.  The ad hominem accusation is also funny to me, it's clear he was attempting to weaken my position and argument by accusing me of fallacy and personal attacks.

Anyway the community seems to think it's a bad idea.  It would be pretty silly to change anything based on one person's views when so many people think differently.  I will surrender my assumptions to the majority view.

[Maroon]

I was not naming it ad hominem to try to weaken your argument. You have a more direct way of arguing than I do, and I apologize if I overreacted to it. I would, however, like it if you could refrain from statements like "maybe this discussion isn't for you.".

All that aside, I'd like to see your thoughts about what I actually said in my post. Why do you feel two handed weapons outclass polearms?

[Irolltwenties]

I was not naming it ad hominem to try to weaken your argument. You have a more direct way of arguing than I do, and I apologize if I overreacted to it. I would, however, like it if you could refrain from statements like "maybe this discussion isn't for you.".

All that aside, I'd like to see your thoughts about what I actually said in my post. Why do you feel two handed weapons outclass polearms?

In my experience one of the most noticeable advantages of polearms is length.  Being able to line up behind the slashing Commandos and slash is a beautiful thing.  But very long fast swords such as Legacy and Aurora lessen that advantage in my mind because if others can do it, it is no longer a distinct advantage of polearms.  Not to mention the powerful albeit somewhat slower AGS and VGS.  On open ground where defensive abilities such as armor and health (think Commando heroes vs Halberdier) become a greater advantage the shorter, faster, and higher damage weapons such as Durendal and Mjolnir shine the most. 

[Sargent Q]

I would like to know why you are ignoring my posts.

[Faultyr]

I would like to know why you are ignoring my posts.

Nobody wants to talk with you!

But yeah, respond him. Sargent Q asked exactly what i wanted to ask!

[Irolltwenties]

VHTA's can one shot the Rangers in Rag.  I am 100% sure that the Legendary Throwing weapons can 1 shot them as well. 

Halberdier's have Higher Polearms than Legionnaire have 1 handed, or Zwiehander has 2 handed.  Which is what Maroon was saying when he said that They have better Melee than Legionnaire.

Are you trying to get one underplayed class buffed at the Expense of another underplayed class?  They don't want to Give Legionnaire 9 shielding.  Which would defiantly make more sense than giving Halberdier's 9 shielding. 

Oh and Halberdier's Have more hitpoints than RG or Legionnaire,  as well as they have their own legendary armor which has 67 Body armor.  For comparison Half-plate has 72 body armor.  One thing that might be changed there is that they might get access to Studded Gauntlets.  http://forum.nordinvasion.com/index.php?...#msg191401

I thought that's what Maroon was saying at first too but he corrected me and was actually talking about the weapons themselves.  Halberdier polearm is 190 and Legionnaires 1H is a whopping 240 not to mention their 2H at 185!  Legionnaires also receive an extra point in power strike so I may be unsure of your point in that regard.

The point of the original post was not, absolutely not, to have any changes made at the expense of any other class.  Let me repeat that because I feel very strongly about that.  This is not a nerf thread.  The point of the original post was not, absolutely not, to have any changes made at the expense of any other class.

I am simply using the shining example of the Pavise as a pillar of argument.  Why are Halberdier and Ranger not shining examples as well?

I did forget about Chainmail over Leather or Human Skin at 67 armor though.  But that isn't a comparison to Half-Plate.  That would be a comparison to say Gothic and I'm sure it's a hell of a lot more than 72.

[Lothar]

Just give Halberdiers 9 shielding like Pavise Champions and give them access to a house crafted shield like Small Dragon Kite.  Voila!  A useful class that is actually worth 750K.

+1 like that idea, you can throw and shield if they are to close.