Kiting stuff, keep it here!

[Nka19]

Ok, I was about to stay out of this, but just saw Antient Bastion and just can't help myself without posting.

I mean, as it was already said, kiting was already nerfed enough. Like nerfing the loots if nothing else was a big change for it. But as a kiter I dont care much if loots are lower, I kite for fun mostly. I like cading with team or do a good kite with a friend or two, it's part of NI for me. I like the full package. But seeing a map update that basically just fucks up kiting insted of adds on the map to be better for team-work cading style, that is just wrong...

Ancient Bastion wasn't really that great for cading style, mostly for hard-normal runs, so insted of adding a fance and a wall to the paths that were kitable would be better if map acutally had an update for the actual cade-style. This was just a slap in the face to kiters basically.

I said it already in the past but I'll say it again, kiting is a big part of the community and I know mod's mostly focused on "cading only, team-work style" but there's team work in kiting as well, shooting off guys to protect your friends making a clear path for both to pass if there's some nord ambusing you somewhere etc. etc.
Denying kiting will just make more players quit, I mean everyone loves to play in a team but sometimes just chill and do a kite run.

Think that's what I had to say. I'm not trying to bitch but that's just facts.

Regards,
Nka19

[Sargent Q]

Ok, I was about to stay out of this, but just saw Antient Bastion and just can't help myself without posting.

I mean, as it was already said, kiting was already nerfed enough. Like nerfing the loots if nothing else was a big change for it. But as a kiter I dont care much if loots are lower, I kite for fun mostly. I like cading with team or do a good kite with a friend or two, it's part of NI for me. I like the full package. But seeing a map update that basically just fucks up kiting insted of adds on the map to be better for team-work cading style, that is just wrong...

Ancient Bastion wasn't really that great for cading style, mostly for hard-normal runs, so insted of adding a fance and a wall to the paths that were kitable would be better if map acutally had an update for the actual cade-style. This was just a slap in the face to kiters basically.

I said it already in the past but I'll say it again, kiting is a big part of the community and I know mod's mostly focused on "cading only, team-work style" but there's team work in kiting as well, shooting off guys to protect your friends making a clear path for both to pass if there's some nord ambusing you somewhere etc. etc.
Denying kiting will just make more players quit, I mean everyone loves to play in a team but sometimes just chill and do a kite run.

Think that's what I had to say. I'm not trying to bitch but that's just facts.

Regards,
Nka19

Exactly.  This came up in TS last night when we looked at ancient bastion as well.  The unanimous agreement was that the map would never be looked for ever again.  Same thing happened with old village,  There is NOWHERE left to cade on that map now for Rag at least.  Even hard mode will be very hard to do and only doable because the ranged are not to hard for the commandos to deal with. 

Why you would change kiting on bastion without adding a good cading spot is beyond me.  Why you would remove the cading spot on old village without adding one that could work is also beyond me.

[Swaliant]

[quote author=[ASSASSINE] link=topic=24687.msg225925#msg225925 date=1426975839]
Lets get back to the Original topic= Nerf of kiting once Again. I have to Agree with Josh, its been nerfed enough now, low xp, Low loot and harder bots ( shotgun sniper on rag). Pls let us have at least a bit of our former kiting fun, people enjoy this let then have at least the Taste of memories of it. I still havent Managed go Understand why it is so Bad

I completely agree with Assassine and madjosh.
    I have changed my stance on this topic= I used to be all for a nerf(not removal) of kiting, which was done very well in patches including and directly following 7.0. People could still kite and have their fun if they enjoyed it, but the loot and xp they gained(one of the main reasons why people were against it) was lowered to the point where kiting became more of a test of skill and a chance for fun than a way to get rich quick.
    Removing an entire playstyle is not the way to make the game more team orientated. Rather than punishing people who kite and want to play alone(thereby alienating part of the community to the point that they can make a 9 page topic on why its such an issue that its being targeted), try and look for ways to encourage teamwork. Kiting CAN be a team effort, but because of the restrictions that have been placed upon it(smaller maps, random dead ends, harder bots, and more 1-way maps), people have not been encouraged to stop kiting, but to do it in even smaller groups.
    I used to see 6-10 people kiting together, using their abilities and cooperation to beat the game. Now, kiting groups that large, even when stacked with strong players, only hold a team back.
    Should all maps be made kiteable and ridiculously easy? No. But should good, well made maps be scattered with blockades simply to prevent people from playing how they want? No again. As for the argument that kiting exploits the AI and its inability to behave in a proper way, what about making a wall of cades and shields and then whacking an entire wave of enemies in the head over and over again because they are unable to jump over the 1 foot tall wall 2 steps to their left? Is that not exploiting their behaviour?
    Teamwork is not limited to sitting at a shield wall and slashing through a 1 inch hole and shooting at stationary enemies, teamwork means to work as a team to achieve a goal, whether kiting, or shielding.
[/quote]
Exactly my opinions, thank God someone with good English can explain it ;D I definitely agree and think they nerfed kiting and ranged classes too much that it might deter players from choosing archer or skirmisher. I don't even play with my ranger chars and the truth kiting sucks is one of the most important reasons for this.
I prefer infantry yet when I see people kiting, struggling too much, playing hard and smart, I simply admire them and they deserve respect IMO.

[Hande]

Cleaned this a bit.
Stay on the subject or I will close this thread.

[[ASSASSINE]]

community feedback seems pretty clear, any asnwer dev side to this?
and yes, please stay on the topic

[Tsukiyomi]

I love kiting.  It's a great test of personal skill and an even better test of teamwork and coordination.  I can understand the dev's position of wanting to nerf/do away with kiting, however, I can't understand the changes to some of the maps.  Old Village and Ancient Bastion are the two best examples of this.  The only advantage Ancient Bastion had was in kiting; otherwise the map is too big and takes forever to do an actual cading run (if you can even get a team with enough walls/sch).  Old Village is in an even worse state now.  I can't actually see how this map was nerfed in regard to kiting (wasn't actually aware this was a popular kite map), it seems the only major change was removing the only cading spot which was viable on rag runs.  I guess what I really don't understand is the mindset of wanting to ruin maps that people like instead of taking the maps that are commonly considered terrible/not played and improving them. 

[Madjosh]

If the devs want to do away with kiting then it should be made clear and a stiff stance be taken and upheld regarding this style of play. it's flammingly apparent by the poll above that over half the community are keen on kiting being an applicable playstyle for the mod. if this is unacceptable then it's only fair that they are informed on what stance the mod will follow and continue to develop regarding this matter so they can make the decision on whether or not it suits them to continue spending time to develop characters made to kite/play the mod at all if it is the only playstyle they enjoy.

[Telemachus]

Teamplay - Got it, love team play.
Kiting - Pretty fun, pretty necessary if your a range player trying to level up on a server with no population.

Trying to look at this from the point of the dev's, I sense that they are trying to solve 2 problems with 1 solution.

Problem 1 - Some players (probably strong) run to the spawn point and drag away the bots to kill them out of range of the remaining players.
End result - no shared loot/assist xp.  Booo  Hisssss!

Problem 2 - Some players (I will leave the reason to the reader) Like to afk several runs and just do nothing while sucking up assist xp and mats.
End result - The remaining players do all the work and AFKer gets rewarded.  Boooo Hisssss!

Understandable problems to deal with, but what about Problem 3?

Problem 3 - There is nobody online!  I'm trying to level my character and there is no group to join, but I've got X hours to burn and I want to play this mod. 
End result - Hmmm, they play, get pissed off and log out?  They lose interest in the mod and start playing Atilla the Hun? 
I hope it's not that, and I do think there are still a few recent map changes which allow for some very good kiting.

So, would I like to see kiting nurfed?  No, I wouldn't.  I'd like to see people take personal responsibility and participate as a group when more than 1 player is on the server, but I'd also like to be rich, handsome, and well - rich.  Do unto others.... been around a while now.  People still don't get it I guess. 

So yeah, give the dev's a break, cause I think they are dealing with a problem that is not so easy to solve.  What a great mod!  Really, at the end of the bitching and moaning; this is a great mod!  And your human and flexible.  Work with it, you can.

[Bobo]

Spoiler

Teamplay - Got it, love team play.
Kiting - Pretty fun, pretty necessary if your a range player trying to level up on a server with no population.

Trying to look at this from the point of the dev's, I sense that they are trying to solve 2 problems with 1 solution.

Problem 1 - Some players (probably strong) run to the spawn point and drag away the bots to kill them out of range of the remaining players.
End result - no shared loot/assist xp.  Booo  Hisssss!

Spoiler

Problem 2 - Some players (I will leave the reason to the reader) Like to afk several runs and just do nothing while sucking up assist xp and mats.
End result - The remaining players do all the work and AFKer gets rewarded.  Boooo Hisssss!

Understandable problems to deal with, but what about Problem 3?

Problem 3 - There is nobody online!  I'm trying to level my character and there is no group to join, but I've got X hours to burn and I want to play this mod. 
End result - Hmmm, they play, get pissed off and log out?  They lose interest in the mod and start playing Atilla the Hun? 
I hope it's not that, and I do think there are still a few recent map changes which allow for some very good kiting.

So, would I like to see kiting nurfed?  No, I wouldn't.  I'd like to see people take personal responsibility and participate as a group when more than 1 player is on the server, but I'd also like to be rich, handsome, and well - rich.  Do unto others.... been around a while now.  People still don't get it I guess. 

So yeah, give the dev's a break, cause I think they are dealing with a problem that is not so easy to solve.  What a great mod!  Really, at the end of the bitching and moaning; this is a great mod!  And your human and flexible.  Work with it, you can.

As I do this myself sometimes, I will attempt to explain: player with strong armour combined with high killing ability simply wants the things to go faster on low waves. For hero level characters it is quite boring to wait e.g. fisrt 8 waves on normal. So they (me) go forward to take out those peasants quickly and get to more interesting part of run. I do not think anyone has intention to deprive other players of assist XP.
Solution to this problem: approach within the range of assist XP and possibly give some help against enemies, too.

Spoiler

Teamplay - Got it, love team play.
Kiting - Pretty fun, pretty necessary if your a range player trying to level up on a server with no population.

Trying to look at this from the point of the dev's, I sense that they are trying to solve 2 problems with 1 solution.

Problem 1 - Some players (probably strong) run to the spawn point and drag away the bots to kill them out of range of the remaining players.
End result - no shared loot/assist xp.  Booo  Hisssss!

Problem 2 - Some players (I will leave the reason to the reader) Like to afk several runs and just do nothing while sucking up assist xp and mats.
End result - The remaining players do all the work and AFKer gets rewarded.  Boooo Hisssss!

Spoiler

Understandable problems to deal with, but what about Problem 3?

Problem 3 - There is nobody online!  I'm trying to level my character and there is no group to join, but I've got X hours to burn and I want to play this mod. 
End result - Hmmm, they play, get pissed off and log out?  They lose interest in the mod and start playing Atilla the Hun? 
I hope it's not that, and I do think there are still a few recent map changes which allow for some very good kiting.

So, would I like to see kiting nurfed?  No, I wouldn't.  I'd like to see people take personal responsibility and participate as a group when more than 1 player is on the server, but I'd also like to be rich, handsome, and well - rich.  Do unto others.... been around a while now.  People still don't get it I guess. 

So yeah, give the dev's a break, cause I think they are dealing with a problem that is not so easy to solve.  What a great mod!  Really, at the end of the bitching and moaning; this is a great mod!  And your human and flexible.  Work with it, you can.

Being AFK and doing nothing to help the team is not ok for sure. I know some hero players sometimes leave low (easy) waves to others, just to avoid what you've forwarded as Problem 1. It's is difficult sometimes to tell the difference and say when it becomes leeching. I do think hero characters do not leech on normal as potential assist xp gain is really small, not to mention most of mats one can get. In case you see someone just standing there and not helping talk to him. If there is no response for a long time go IRC and call admin to kick the AFKer.

Spoiler

Teamplay - Got it, love team play.
Kiting - Pretty fun, pretty necessary if your a range player trying to level up on a server with no population.

Trying to look at this from the point of the dev's, I sense that they are trying to solve 2 problems with 1 solution.

Problem 1 - Some players (probably strong) run to the spawn point and drag away the bots to kill them out of range of the remaining players.
End result - no shared loot/assist xp.  Booo  Hisssss!

Problem 2 - Some players (I will leave the reason to the reader) Like to afk several runs and just do nothing while sucking up assist xp and mats.
End result - The remaining players do all the work and AFKer gets rewarded.  Boooo Hisssss!

Understandable problems to deal with, but what about Problem 3?

Problem 3 - There is nobody online!  I'm trying to level my character and there is no group to join, but I've got X hours to burn and I want to play this mod. 
End result - Hmmm, they play, get pissed off and log out?  They lose interest in the mod and start playing Atilla the Hun? 
I hope it's not that, and I do think there are still a few recent map changes which allow for some very good kiting.

Spoiler

So, would I like to see kiting nurfed?  No, I wouldn't.  I'd like to see people take personal responsibility and participate as a group when more than 1 player is on the server, but I'd also like to be rich, handsome, and well - rich.  Do unto others.... been around a while now.  People still don't get it I guess. 

So yeah, give the dev's a break, cause I think they are dealing with a problem that is not so easy to solve.  What a great mod!  Really, at the end of the bitching and moaning; this is a great mod!  And your human and flexible.  Work with it, you can.

Ah yeah, we're back to the topic. Indeed that is an issue that should be considered when talking about kiting. There are simply parts of the day when there are few players online and if one wants to play he must kite. Especially when one's character is not enginner so one can't bring in cade. And even if one can bring the cade, one cannot replace items if alone on server, so just 1 cade it is. So how do one plays alone from behind cades and how many locations there are on maps where you can cade completely with 1 shc?
Good point, Telemachus.

Spoiler

Teamplay - Got it, love team play.
Kiting - Pretty fun, pretty necessary if your a range player trying to level up on a server with no population.

Trying to look at this from the point of the dev's, I sense that they are trying to solve 2 problems with 1 solution.

Problem 1 - Some players (probably strong) run to the spawn point and drag away the bots to kill them out of range of the remaining players.
End result - no shared loot/assist xp.  Booo  Hisssss!

Problem 2 - Some players (I will leave the reason to the reader) Like to afk several runs and just do nothing while sucking up assist xp and mats.
End result - The remaining players do all the work and AFKer gets rewarded.  Boooo Hisssss!

Understandable problems to deal with, but what about Problem 3?

Problem 3 - There is nobody online!  I'm trying to level my character and there is no group to join, but I've got X hours to burn and I want to play this mod. 
End result - Hmmm, they play, get pissed off and log out?  They lose interest in the mod and start playing Atilla the Hun? 
I hope it's not that, and I do think there are still a few recent map changes which allow for some very good kiting.

So, would I like to see kiting nurfed?  No, I wouldn't.  I'd like to see people take personal responsibility and participate as a group when more than 1 player is on the server, but I'd also like to be rich, handsome, and well - rich.  Do unto others.... been around a while now.  People still don't get it I guess. 

So yeah, give the dev's a break, cause I think they are dealing with a problem that is not so easy to solve. 

What a great mod!  Really, at the end of the bitching and moaning; this is a great mod!  And your human and flexible.  Work with it, you can.

You're the man ! 

[Telemachus]

Bobo compliments my post very well.  There are players here with multiple characters at hero level and all have reached that point through various methodologies.    You simply cannot categorize a kiter as being bad, whereas you probably have greater cause to cite the AFK player as being bad.

As bobo states, higher level players may feel justified in getting the group to a higher wave faster (and thus earn more assist xp).  well that sort of sucks for the guy who is lvl 3 and not getting any xp at all, and those small xp help at that lvl.  He might make it up a higher waves, if he lives. 

Now we're back to teamwork, or is it?  Let's say you're lvl 32 infantry; you just worked really hard and achieved that lvl WOOT!  You have no support skills and you pick a hard server with 15 players.  Tell me your role?  I'm waiting..... For 20 waves what will you do?  Many will answer - healer.  Good answer; who's bringing in the med kits? Archers and other ranged probably can serve a purpose behind a good shield wall.  Lvl 32 infantry?  hello?

Tied by level as to what support you can bring in, and tied by level as to how good you can fight/shield.    Why can't I be a lvl 1 with maxed healing skill if I want to?