Change orange legendaries

[Malong]

The point wasn't where the search result sits in the list, and obviously it would have the text "gold sink" in it if it returned in a text search. But you claim you suggested gold sinks (which multiple players, admins, and devs have brought up at least about three years prior), but instead it's as a side effect of another rejected change. It's like you were "putting a light on" a topic that was already quite well lit.

I'm slowly getting tired of saying the same stuff. I never claimed I was the 1st to come up with the idea of we need a big gold sink. You could have a few threads before me but I could not care less when It's not my point and never has been my point. 

If I had to play this game..., go show me a thread that's as close as that is to upgrades that reference one of the positives as a gold sink. Could be 1 or 2 or 500 out there sure but I could not care less when It's never has been my point.

Looking at it again I didn't notice that Terath did edit my thread for some reason long before It was locked. Does that say anything? No, not really but it shows at least 1 dev went back to the thread about 14 days later for some reason when nothing changed. (Yes it's a joke)

/facepalm. It's not about being first. But you claim you "put a light on the subject" that was already well understood. Think about that: you clarified something that was already clear.

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/sigh, this again. It's been 6-7 years (August 2013 to now) and this thread demonstrates your reading comprehension level. Reading regularly for that duration would have been more beneficial, but I guess you're not interested because it's not attached to an electronic form of vapid escapism. Regardless, nobody is falling for it:

Once an upon a time I enjoyed how meta this was. Even reading this will not change your mind. That's how meta this is.

You can be somewhat understanding (to some extent) and showing I have some problems. I do have some small problems, however... Then simultaneously saying I can't get better at with practice. I still enjoy this to some extent as it makes me laugh on how someone can be so hypocritical yet dismissive. "Reading regularly" the way you put It sounds like you believe everyone can and does learn the same way. I do read more than you think but to say "read a book" would help is once again hypocritical.

Some people learn better in theory and some people learn better at prac. Some between that and others neither as they have found a different way. I know what works best for me over the year and years of trying different things. Go look at a thread I made In 2014 or whatever. I have not become even avg In some things but I've improved so much that I'm almost happy at where I'm at.

For you to imply you now better is extremely superficial when everyone knows to some extent people improve using different methods. What works for you chances are will not work for me. I wish it was the case but life is not that easy.   

Do you think you're the only person I've ever encountered with a learning disability? The difference is those others work harder, admit their mistakes and don't use it as a crutch to excuse their behavior, don't dig deeper holes when proven to be objectively incorrect, don't rationalize their behavior, don't have anti-intellectual attitudes, don't pretend they were trolling when backed into a corner, etc. And anyway, I didn't even state you couldn't get better with practice.

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What? So the primary intention was solely the removal of gold (rather than it being a side effect) and not the introduction of a new tier of items? And you think it was intended for people to have 10+ awakened legendaries, and in some cases (at the time of this post), 40+? Especially when the patch note was:

These items are not meant for everyone to be able to obtain, nor are they something people are supposed to amass.  They are for the few people that want to upgrade specific legendary items they have grown attached to.

I'm sure what Winter said was probably said about house craftables or at lest normal legendaries at one point as well. I'm sure that comment was not meant to age well otherwise me and you would probably be paying more for upgrades already or something else.

I did pay more, e.g. 35 million and a King's Will for Raging Tempest.

To start did we really want one more tier of items? I remember Nka and I were talking about if upgrades never came Its possible we could have gotten everything. That was Nka's goal after all before upgrades came but once upgrades came both of us jumped making upgrades that day. So... to say we wanted better stats is true and I'm not going to argue that. Everyone wants better gear no shit. 

Derp, moving the goalposts forward is how games survive.

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In 1-2 years time If Ni Is still going what do you want Ni to be? Would you be happy if we got a new tier above upgrades...? It's possible... I don't want It to be the case but looking at the market I feel like we have similar but opposite problems before upgrades came. Were gold was "not wanted at all" now some items are not wanted at all.

The question Is did the community want there to be better items out there more than It wanted a fix for gold. People like me in 2017 made trades like 60m gold + (70m items at the time) for 1 item being Typhoon. Gold was "worthless" to the point asking for a few extra mill on trades was almost guaranteed. Gold problems, In general, affect everyone as we all have the same income being... gold... This is hence why when I say If gold is wanted so badly for upgrades it affects everyone. 

If they wanted to make a new tier of items more then they wanted to fix the gold problem the fix would not be what It is today and what It was at the time. 1st round of upgrades we got 100-150m gold out of the market vs getting not even 10 upgrades out of it. What affected the market more It being a massive gold sink or legendaries not being number 1 anymore. 

To say the primary intention was solely so the 1% could get better items is dismissive when the gold problem affected everyone.

What? Are you trying to state that upgrades were introduced primarily to be a gold sink and not primarily for the stated purpose of upgrading them?

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I get the strong feeling you've never paid taxes before in your life. Taxes are required contributions. Players opt into paying the cost of an upgrade, but it's a tax instead of just the cost of the upgrade? Players that are otherwise "rich" but not interested in upgrades do not have to pay anything (again, while taxes are required contributions).
...
Upgradings being a rich tax is just an easy way to explain this or at least I think so. If the rich want gold for upgrades chances everyone will want gold to buy what the rich are not using. Right now a lot of orange and red legendaries are getting looted then being quickly sold on Ah for that nice gold. I don't have a problem with the idea of that but I do when It's to this scale. 

The upgrade update benefited Ni in full more than the 1%. The 1% just got a tax they are willing to pay or look into paying as they would want the end result. Should I call that a tax probably not but not sure of a better word... Got any?

I have many times and its not that hard if you get all you need beforehand. If you are organised and prepared it's not hard.

No idea how different it is for you but In Au I can do it in a few hours If I have everything ready and the site does not crash like it did last time... A bit like how upgrades are easier if you have what's needed before you decide to make one. 

What the hell are you talking about? I never stated it was difficult. The simple point is that upgrades are optional, while taxes are compulsory. So how can the cost of said optional task be a tax?

I used the example of a tax as like I said to Disco on week one of upgrades "I could probably keep my gold and be better off within a year". If you don't believe I said that well I did it with Vlka's gold and got some nice stuff with it. Got an Elegy for 3m gold etc... The point is even if you don't craft an upgrade what is that gold doing? If you use it in a trade It will In time be put into a gold sink or go into an account that doesn't use it for anything. 

Brool story co.

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And second, hilariously: you expected me to scroll down a list of many search results for a thread about "gold sinks" titled "Hero+." Yet you are not expected to find a search result about "uncrafting" that is literally titled "Uncrafting" (which is the same as the search term). How hypocritical.

The difference being I didn't expect you to even look or care in the 1st place given I didn't remember how petty you can be. 

If I was looking for evidence of you wanting a gold sink before upgrades (as that's all I claimed). I would start end of 2017 and type "gold sink". By this logic, my thread would have been one of the 1st to come up and me being the thread creator is a bonus. That thread is all I needed to prove my cases. Like I said If you want more info you could find it. 

Except I stated quite plainly that I searched:

I actually searched, but is there an expectation that a thread titled "Hero+" would have related to "gold sinks[s]?"

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God look at what I said. "I would read this post If anything [Link] I suggested uncrafting all the way back In 2016 and Its probably been suggested before that. At least 1 dev probably still likes the idea."

That's the point though. You want me to search and read a thread with a completely unrelated title:

I actually searched, but is there an expectation that a thread titled "Hero+" would have related to "gold sinks[s]?" 

It wasn't even that far down if you just searched "gold sink" https://gyazo.com/cc92efd95892802bf0e3a75b52cb33e2

Calling it hero+... The name implying I want better than the hero stats we had... What did you think the cost would be? 

But you couldn't find a thread titled "Uncrafting" when the search term would have been "uncrafting:"

You did it again: giving yourself rope long enough to hang yourself. This is one of your earlier points:

We both have the same tool called "Search".

This is a thread from January 8, 2015. Though, I searched for "salvaging" as "uncrafting" is not a word ("quite unnormal"), but searching for "uncrafting" will show this thread too. It's clear you didn't search!

Your only out here is that you searched for "uncrafting," but didn't look for the thread called "Uncrafting" but you expect others to search for "gold sink" and find a thread called "Hero+." That's the hypocrisy. Do you get it yet?

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But anyway, here you go: Tempest to Ullrs Bane is not an apples-to-apples comparison. The number of classes that can equip an item is a pointless figure if the distribution of the actual players spec'ing each possible hero is not equal (and it's not): traditionally, Warden was more spec'ed than the other three Archer heroes combined. So you are comparing the best bow for suboptimal and unpopular classes to the best bow for the optimal and the most widely-played class. Furthermore, this is ignoring the fact that Tempest was introduced years after Ullrs Bane. At least compare something like Onyx Bolts and Rending Bolts, where (unlike Warden and Archers) Chosen Marksman never dwarfed the other three Crossbowman heroes.

But anyway, yes, orange items are replaced by red items. And don't bother with some bullshit like there being no red version of Severance because there's no exact red item that is usable by both Legionnaire and Pikeman hero that is a throwing axe. This should not have be spoonfed to anybody: the replacement does not have to be a 1:1 correspondence. If you are a Legionnaire, Malice and Glory are better. If you are a Pikeman hero, Volcanic Daggers and Twigs are better. Severance is obsolete.

Ummm. 
For how viable and optimal heroes are has nothing to do with my example. 
For when items are added has nothing to do with my example. 
For when items came out has nothing to do with my example. 

This is a straw man argument or you don't understand it. 

Why do I have to explain this to you. You asked why orange items are worth less than red items. People answered you. You tried to contradict that by comparing two red items. Good job. You tried to tell us that flexibilty should make Ullrs Bane worth more than it is. But the fact that it can be used by more classes is not particularly useful when those other classes aren't widely played, and thus Ullrs Bane has a lower target market. The best item for a non-optimal class is not valued as highly as a more narrow but better item for the best class. This is a feature, not a bug.

For what items are valued has nothing to do with my example. 

So you brought up the original question and it's irrelevant to this topic? Good job:

How are Reds worth more than Oranges[?]

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I used bows as my example as they have only a few stats that change between them. The only thing that changes is +3p +2 missile speed and + 5 Accuracy and who can use them.




You do gain something going from Tempest to Ullr's that being usability... It may be not a cost you would be willing to take as It's subjective. It's still valued in the system just as much as Tempest. Unless Winter wants to tell me 1 hero locked items are the rarest.

You do gain something going from Ullr's to F-bow that being usability... It may be not a cost you would be willing to take as It's subjective. The defiance here is this "I see them as just about the same as reds already just with a buff none uses." That point can't be argued with. Orange legendaries are clearly better than reds at something.    

And again, it's better at "something," but that "something" isn't valued by much of the community. So what's the usefulness of this flexibility? Though it is funny envisioning a scenario of someone trying to claim "b-b-but, you can use it on your Sentinel, Sentry, and Ranger too!" and someone else replying "but I don't have those classes because I made the reasonable choice and have a Warden instead!"

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Do we...

A. Buff the stats and take away their usability that made them clearly better at something than all other items. This would give people more options in terms of items given how much people still like all hero reds. 

B. Embrace this usability and buff It to the point a new playstyle is viable. It wouldn't be optimal but it will not be obsolete likey they are now.  Maybe the devs could turn back on this train of thought [Link] given people before did like playing Hybrids.

Start with "why should anything be done?" And even if this was "a problem" is this a problem for all that many people, and what value does implementing anything really deliver? If something should be done, was there a better and different alternative?

Why do all items have to have a place in optimal builds? So their owners can try to maximize "profit" by unloading these items? I really doubt people are looking forward to the day where they can use currently-bad items, so let's not pretend this is for altruism towards people that have orange items.

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C. Give away for plays to trade in the items they just got. [Link] The market is not fun right now and It's not looking like its slowing down if anything its getting worse every day. 

I think what you mean is "trying to get as much as I can out of someone for an obsolete item is getting more difficult." People loot bad items, they deal with it instead of crying about the market not being "fun."

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To say Severance is obsolete is subjective even now. It should be better than Db If you rather axes for some reason. If you say its Db is objectively better then you would agree with me It probably needs a buff otherwise Db a nerf. 

I never brought up DB. But sure, let's suppose it's better than DB; cool, now it's better than a different obsolete item. Why bother comparing them? And for the record, they're both obsolete, so you may as well ask if I would rather have a pile of human shit, a pile of dog shit, or neither. I pick neither.

Making It red as I implied would put It on line with Twigs. It would be subjective to say Twigs are better than a Severance because if you say its objectively better then you would agree with me It probably needs a buff otherwise Twigs a nerf. 

And if you set Severance's text to red without accompanying stat changes, it's still worse. I didn't see any option for "buff all orange legendaries' stats." And no, just because another item is better does not mean its budget alternatives need to be improved. It was meant to be a budget option (and be worse) all along.

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And if few players choose that alleged "buff," then it doesn't have much utility nor value. 

Subjective.

Sure, but again: if the advantage isn't desired over just having better stats, then the flexibility is not valued highly. The community has decided these "buffs" (and it's a trait, not a buff) is not all that useful by not wanting to acquire those items. You can claim otherwise, but if this wasn't true, this "problem" (and it's not really a problem) and thread wouldn't exist.

When a new player loots let say a Legacy but still wants to go Zwei It's subjective to say the only option is to keep it. 

Players make this choice every day and there is no right answer. 

What?

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I don't believe I ever called them "peasant items" or anything to that effect. In my viewpoint, it's bad for the community to unload items that won't hold their value to get gold out of new players, when those new players should be using their gold to get better items that will last longer for them. Instead, I advise players to only craft and acquire house crafted items that are used in recipes of awakened legendaries, so the player doesn't take too much of a loss if or when they get better gear.

As for calling the items obsolete: well, they are. And that's not me imposing my viewpoint on others, it's a viewpoint that many people independently conclude. If orange legendaries and light blue items were usable by Tier 3 characters, I would still consider them to be bad and not advise anyone from acquiring the vast majority of them outside looting. What happens when that player gets to Hero? Congratulations, you're a Hero equipped with something that has been replaced. Good job!

I was the one to call them peasant items In an event. More of an old joke for the people that may remember.

Great, don't include me then:

You and I see most If not all craftables as "peasant items"

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Grate you advise players what to craft and what to buy. Nice. 

They ask me, and I choose to tell them what's best for their time instead of using it as an opportunity to try to unload items that are undesirable.

What about the older people with craftables none wants? What about when anyone loots anything most of Ni does not want or need?

The "game experience may change over time" and other such disclaimers have existed for decades for a reason.

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I would advise players to do what they feel like. I'll tell them what's more optimal but if they enjoy something I'll say "Well that's an option." This is a game, after all, some people find it fun to be as optimal as they can all the time and others just want to do something a bit more different.

Playstyle is subjective (as long as you are going by the rules you a good). I'll tell people how to be optimal but I'm not going to stop them from doing what they want. How you play and what you play is up to you and only you.

"What about the newer players that got tricked into acquiring craftables [no one] wants?"

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If I and others want to play as Hybrids that's up to us not you or even the Devs to some extent. The Dev's have made it harder to play given they lowed the possible stats you could have but also they took away the usability legendaries and other items had. The (B) request Is simple as It just roles back to how it was with maybe some changes.

And nobody ever claimed otherwise...

Nothing will change for those that don't want to use those items after the update other than... If you have an orange item more people will want them. For those that do well now, it became more viable not optimal but viable to play as a Tr3 + Tr3 + Tr1.

But the main reason seems to be your e-shekels. No thanks.