Halberdier Change

[Tjav]

historically the italian city states used pavise crossbowmen, soldiers equipped with crossbows and big shield placed on their backs, as a way to defend themselves against enemy counterfire, logically i person using a polearm would have problems also using a shield since a proper shield weighs quite alot, so from a historical and logical point of view or shield is okay for crossbows since you can place the crossbow on the back and use the shield and ur small sidesword, while it would be rather strange to run around with a halberd and even a small shield, taking that halberds is a two handed weapon

this is just a way to perhaps clarify the classes taken from my view, and i know its a game and it doesnt have to be 100 pct correct but still, halberds and shields just doesnt really fit together in my head

[Looter]

Greek Hoplites Tjav, Greek Hoplites.

Anyway, just give them access to better shields and nothing else, they are still a t4 pikeman if you count their throwing so that's enough.

[Irolltwenties]

historically the italian city states used pavise crossbowmen, soldiers equipped with crossbows and big shield placed on their backs, as a way to defend themselves against enemy counterfire, logically i person using a polearm would have problems also using a shield since a proper shield weighs quite alot, so from a historical and logical point of view or shield is okay for crossbows since you can place the crossbow on the back and use the shield and ur small sidesword, while it would be rather strange to run around with a halberd and even a small shield, taking that halberds is a two handed weapon

this is just a way to perhaps clarify the classes taken from my view, and i know its a game and it doesnt have to be 100 pct correct but still, halberds and shields just doesnt really fit together in my head

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Macedonian_phalanx

Everyone who carried a sarissa had a shield strapped to his arm.

No, historically a Pavise was closer to what we use Deployable Shields as, not the shields our Commandos are using in the shield line.  Also the Macedonians seemed to use their sarissas and shields quite well.  They conquered the known world with them after all.

[Tjav]

greek hoplites was a little different tho, they would use their long spears while in formation and for close quartes use swords, besides the hoplites werent as heavily armored as the medieval halberdiers often guarding castles, hoplites would also historically only use the sarrissa / pike, taking that swinging with such a massive weapon for longer periods of time while holding up a hoplon would simply be nearly impossible

[Irolltwenties]

greek hoplites was a little different tho, they would use their long spears while in formation and for close quartes use swords, besides the hoplites werent as heavily armored as the medieval halberdiers often guarding castles, hoplites would also historically only use the sarrissa / pike, taking that swinging with such a massive weapon for longer periods of time while holding up a hoplon would simply be nearly impossible

I'm sorry but you're wrong again.  Hoplites used a much shorter thrusting spear called a "doru" not a sarissa.  That's why they could hold their hoplon or aspis up for so long.  But even the Macedonian phalanx made use of smaller shields strapped to their arms while they carried the sarissa with both hands.

Hence why I suggested the Small Dragon Kite shield.

You're also mistaken on medieval halberdiers as well.  They were field troops and guards.  The halberd didn't take as much training to use effectively as some other weapons.  That's why it was so widely adopted.  The billhook was a similar weapon which the English used to great effect in both foreign and domestic conflicts.  The pike and shot formations of the 15th and 16th centuries were actually less armored so than a Hoplite.  The bronze armor of a typical Hoplite was actually quite heavy especially when you weigh in the dorus spear point and butt along with their hoplon or aspis.

[Tjav]

well you just linked to what the macedonians used, they used sarrisas and not doru's, the doru was about 2.4 meters long, which is still a nice workable length, but yet again only effective while in formation, we can argue alot about the effectiveness of the spears vs swords and we will most likely not agree, and the point about the pavise you mentioned isnt exactly true, there were a smaller version of the normal pavise shield that could be used as hand to hand shield, while in other times it was actually a different person holding the shield while the crossbowman would reload,

i wouldnt change the halberdier into what you offer, making him an jack of all trades, since were talking about a guy who could actually outdo the current legionaire, perhaps renaming the entire class to an hoplite, but that would just make a problem with the fact that mount and blade and spears isnt the best friends

[Sargent Q]

One major issue with giving Spearmen Shields to bring in and still being logically is what Tjav just said.  Mount and Blade Warband does not work the greatest.  One of the things very visible with that is how horrible spears are with shields.  Especially overhand stabs.  I have a edited Native game into which i put the NI weapons, some of the coding carried over and one of the things that did is overhand stabs.  In Native that does not work at all.  And I mean at all.  They do NO damage what so ever. 

About the X-bows getting close the RG shield skill.  Crossbow Men have been the line closest to Infantry all along in Mount and Blade.  Of all the Archer in single player, the X-Bowmen are the ones who have the best melee. The Rhodok Sharpshooters beati the Nord, Vaegir, and Khergit Archers in melee by quite a bit. 

The reason that I think that is, is to make up for their slow reload speed.  Making it more Viable to use them over Archers.

[Irolltwenties]

I'm not advocating for spears and shields.  In fact I say increase the penalty for holding both at the same time.

I'm advocating for 9 shielding to match Pavise.  That is all.

I'm not attempting to make Halberdiers some shield plus one hander powerhouse with all the benefits of pikeman.  I'm simply arguing for an increase in utility ala 9 shielding like Pavise Champions receive.  While still being able to use some of the best crossbows in the game.  So some of the best offensive characters in the game and they are all able to bring in Tower Shield and have 9 shielding?  Second best shielder in the game?  Better than Zwei or Legion? 

But OH GOD BEES Halberdier with 9 shielding.  Oh noes we can't do that, that's silly.

[Tjav]

but wouldnt that just give the halberdier 9 shielding and shields, but no weapon to use with them? i see it a little bit like the warden problem to be honest, minor stat increase but with superior armor compared to the other classes, personally the way i see the pike classes is marauder as a melee glass cannon, and the master peltast as a throwing glass cannon, the halberdier being the middle ground with more armour but a little lower stats

[Irolltwenties]

but wouldnt that just give the halberdier 9 shielding and shields, but no weapon to use with them? i see it a little bit like the warden problem to be honest, minor stat increase but with superior armor compared to the other classes, personally the way i see the pike classes is marauder as a melee glass cannon, and the master peltast as a throwing glass cannon, the halberdier being the middle ground with more armour but a little lower stats

Those greater armor increases come with huge weight increases.  Remember armor is linear.  Five armor at the cost of twenty five points in weight is a terrible trade. 

They also don't need a one hander.  Why would they?  They need some utility not to become a God class.  Leave their one handed ability where it is.  They still have access to Fell Edge like everyone else.  But don't increase their one hander ability too that's going to far.

I'm advocating for some additional utility to bring them in line with some other utility classes.  This is not to make them overpowered.