NI, is it worth the grind?

[bossculeur]

Thanks for posting that, Harlaus. I was tempted to post something similar but didn't want to write for ages.

Randomness is the only fair system and it would be insanity to use any other system for drops. There will always be some people who get lucky and some who don't, that the basic principle behind grinding games. In most grinding games (D2 ect.) people play hard until they burnout and then take a break for a while and come back fresh. It's only natural that people are leaving right now. They'll be back at some point. As frustrated as you seem I recommend taking a break. I did fr about a month and the game feels much more fun now.

And if you do keep playing just try to be more positive. Don't let it make you so angry when others get legendaries.

Other than that I just wanted to dispute your estimated stats because right now they seem preposterously biased. 3 rag runs a day is a ridiculous overstatement. The group that Harlaus described has averaged something closer to 9 odins a week (1 each weekday, 4 on Saturday and Sunday). Still a lot but a less exaggerated number. Furthermore to add to Harlaus list of people who have been rewarded (although not all of them in the last 84 days): click, me, darkfire, mystic, Dan, harlaus. That really is a pretty good batting rate for legendaries.

Odin just called! Yours is coming!

[Hawkens]

Usually when I see one of these threads I tend to stick well away from them, but as Madjosh is a friend and you’re all raising valid points I feel a need to say something, so finally after reading through all the walls of writing I have found my view of this situation.

Firstly Green drops: I have seen and read countless threads of this subject and most have had a similar outcome: a dev locking the thread and saying they are trying to fix it with coming up with a new system. This is all true and the best virtue we can have right now is patience. I know it can be frustrating grinding for x numbers of hours by yourself and with friends to find nothing and then have someone who just joins the run on wave 12 get a Water. But this is the system and you can’t do anything about it. So right now the best way to help the devs is probably by getting along either the current system an leaving them more time to work on the new system, think about the amount of time it takes a dev to read a thread like this is the time he is losing on developing a new system. So if you stop posting thread like this it will do more help than hindrance and I am sure the devs are quite aware of the current situation so there is no reason to bring it up again.

Secondly legendary drops: the amount of frustration on ts and on the forums about who the legendries are going to is huge. Many older players (definition of older player: a person who has been playing this game along time) who have not received a legendary are quite rightly annoyed and frustrated about people who have been play for a few months or less getting a drop while they have grinded carried and helped level many redshirts and have gotten nothing. At this point many people are pulling out the deserving and undeserving card. This is not true nobody can be truly deserving or undeserving seeing as everyone has equal chance. But Madjosh has stated that “older” players are getting frustrated over who these drops are going to. This is true I have spent many nights on ts listening to the frustration these “older” players have. I don’t think of myself as a older player or a player deserving a legendary but I too have been frustrated about who the drops are going to. I have no right to be frustrated but I am because I am human. Many of the people getting these legendries are the ones relying on the “older” players to carry them to Odin/Ragnar. What many people in this thread have been saying is “is there a way to create a system where the “older” players have more chance of a drop and for leechers and people getting carried to have less chance” this is not right and I doubt whether it is even possible. As it is impossible for a computer to establish who and who hasn’t contributed to the team. So to finish off on my second point I will say yes the drop rate has to be re-established so that everyone is happy but still so it fair for new players to get far in this game

So for a final say will tell you my feelings and what I have established has the feelings of the other players. I believe like everyone else that the drop rates for legendries’ and green drops have to be redone. I do not see myself as an old player, experienced player, deserving player, good player or a veteran player seeing has I am none of them. I can understand why “older” players are frustrated that they carry many new players to Odin kills and such. These “older” players sometimes actually quite like carrying player because they can teach them the ropes and I have seen many very good players emerge from the people I and my friends have carried. It is the players the refuse to help the team or accept advise from that these “older” players get frustrated at because seemingly to them these players get legendries. So on a closing note I agree that my post is probably pointless and makes no sense but I am just trying to keep the peace and point out everyone is right and the there is no point in complaining to the devs as they already know about it. So I hope no one gets hurt from this post and if they do it wasn’t intended I am just trying to point out everyone is right
Best Regards Hawkens

[Sunguard_Leader_Suns]

For me, it is worth it. Drops rates may be *low* to some people but I don't really care. I play this game for its purpose. Entertainment. If I get a drop I'm happy. If I don't I don't really care. Many threads have been created to build off on another especially the green drop ones. The Devs have spoken and said they will fix the drop rates. I'm guessing this will be near the next patch or so. Soon may mean long or short depending on how patient you are. It does get annoying seeing how a lvl 39 with t3 equipment, crap gear, and is leeching get a drop. But some peoples luck is extreme. You just have to keep trying and eventually.

Some Luck and Hours Of Hard-Work will reward you.

[madjsoh]

Thanks for posting that, Harlaus. I was tempted to post something similar but didn't want to write for ages.

Randomness is the only fair system and it would be insanity to use any other system for drops. There will always be some people who get lucky and some who don't, that the basic principle behind grinding games. In most grinding games (D2 ect.) people play hard until they burnout and then take a break for a while and come back fresh. It's only natural that people are leaving right now. They'll be back at some point. As frustrated as you seem I recommend taking a break. I did fr about a month and the game feels much more fun now.

And if you do keep playing just try to be more positive. Don't let it make you so angry when others get legendaries.

Other than that I just wanted to dispute your estimated stats because right now they seem preposterously biased. 3 rag runs a day is a ridiculous overstatement. The group that Harlaus described has averaged something closer to 9 odins a week (1 each weekday, 4 on Saturday and Sunday). Still a lot but a less exaggerated number. Furthermore to add to Harlaus list of people who have been rewarded (although not all of them in the last 84 days): click, me, darkfire, mystic, Dan, harlaus. That really is a pretty good batting rate for legendaries.

Odin just called! Yours is coming!

before i respond to harluas's post i want to clear some things up about the estimated stats i have given. these states were taken from PUBLIC RAGNAROK runs. last time i checked some of the legendaries that the above people have gotten were not dropped on ragnarock furthermore were not dropped on public runs. (of course someone would get the legendary from our group if it was an event...) i would also like to point out that dan isn't the only one running ragnarok pub runs as there are a number of them completed during au time when the rest of the guys get off. so before you go out and make these accusations perhaps look into the matter first. if anything some of those stats are an understatement

[madjsoh]

I don't understand what you are saying here. Green drop rates as a topic have been discussed to death. You make two claims really. One is that the randomness of green drops should be reduced or removed, and that at the current the drop rate is too low to satisfy your expectations and desires. Then, you go on to say how the Dev team is going to revise the system of loot distribution. If you know that, then there is no need to make a paragraph complaining about the current system, since it will be replaced soon. Anyways, since you made this paragraph, it won't suffice to say it lacks purpose. On the topic of the current system. Going back to your two claims.

the reason i have brought green drops up as many other people have done in the past is because they are always changing you even state so yourself. therefore players opinions on the drop rates of such items are no doubt bound to change along with them. next, you claim i speak out against the "randomness of green drops" this is not my intention. rather, i am highlighting the fact that these drops can and will be random and as such the stats i give could be off. however, i have sat in TS and heard the complaints of many players who have in their months of ragnarock runs only recieved a hardened leather. moving on about my "complaint" on the drop system and it's imminent replacement. well, like i have made clear, these things DO take time and we have no idea when something like this can or even will come out. therefore in the mean time we have to keep working with the current one. could you imagine if microsoft stopped working on their xbox 360 because they new a new one was coming out god knows when anyway? that is to put simply....absurd!

2: The current drop rate is too low to satisfy your expectations and desires.

these are NOT just my desires but the desires of other players. these issues weren't even raised by myself, rather, the people who are fed up with the current state of green drops. as for my lack of evidence, well i have made this perfectly clear in my post that i am aware of the lack of it so i am going to ignore your accusation.

1: People in my group don't loot legendaries and I don't like it.

i have cleared this up in my response to boss's post

2: People who loot legendaries don't deserve them, I know who deserves loots and who doesn't

This I realise is an extreme generalisation and I'm sorry to the few who truly deserved their legendary drop,

your heading is a tad inaccurate as you can see, secondly, as has been raised many times by myself and others in this thread "what kind of player deserves a legendary?". it would seem that you believe for a person to deserve a legendary they have to have the best gear and gold. if you truly believed that this is how the system should work then i can see how you think it is wrong. however, for me and many other people. the best NI players isn't the one who gets the most kills, has the best gear etc . but rather the guy who sits silently at the back replacing cades when needed, juggles/heals without being asked to and generally does his job as a team player (some gear is required for example a dep shield is more of a hinderance than a help on ragnarock let alone tier one armour which your team mates kill themselves upon). do you really want to create an environment where one could simply log into a server and leave their computer only to have just as much a chance as someone like i have mentioned above? no sir, the randomness system is perhaps the MOST unfair IMHO, but for the time being it is the most effective however players are generally fed up with it......just look at Tjav's post.

[Sudoku_killer]

I have no problem with people who do their best, even if their gear isn't top notch. Those who do nothing and still are rewarded are the real thing.
I can imagine looting system beign based on "more experienced players get better loot" principle, where someone with 39 lvl character and a deployable shield wouldn't get any green loots on ragnarok and had smaller chances of looting legendary. After all isn't 50 k assist xp and some gold enough?
Or one where your chances of looting anything are higher when you're closer to mob killed; that would reward shielders more imo.
And i think assassins should spawn behind anyone who is afk for too long

Usain  Im thinking just like you man ;D

[Harlaus]

the reason i have brought green drops up as many other people have done in the past is because they are always changing you even state so yourself. therefore players opinions on the drop rates of such items are no doubt bound to change along with them. next, you claim i speak out against the "randomness of green drops" this is not my intention. rather, i am highlighting the fact that these drops can and will be random and as such the stats i give could be off. however, i have sat in TS and heard the complaints of many players who have in their months of ragnarock runs only recieved a hardened leather. moving on about my "complaint" on the drop system and it's imminent replacement. well, like i have made clear, these things DO take time and we have no idea when something like this can or even will come out. therefore in the mean time we have to keep working with the current one. could you imagine if microsoft stopped working on their xbox 360 because they new a new one was coming out god knows when anyway? that is to put simply....absurd!

You're opinion hasn't changed with the drop rate though. First off, it couldn't, as you can not tell when the drop rate is raised and lowered without data, which you do not have. Saying "252 runs in 84 days no drops for me buff please" isn't data. Collect 252 runs of real data from all 16 players in the server and compare it with 252 runs of data from another 16 and probably another 16 to be safe, then you can say something about the drop rate. Otherwise it's speculation and emotions, which are useless in this situation. Secondly, November 11th, you showed dissatisfaction on the situation of drops. October 17th, you explained how you agreed with complaints about legendary drop rate. August 28th, you posted about the drop rate being too low and that it should be raised, and that the celebration period drop rates should have been permanent. August 20th, you said you did two ragnarok runs and did not get a green drop, showing a dislike of the drop rate. August 15th, you said if more legendaries don't drop the mod will die. Well, more legendaries dropped, and now you are complaining about how all the "Veteran" players will leave because they are not getting their way. That is absurdly childish.

No player, none of them at all, have done "months of ragnarok runs" only to get a hardened leather. Once more, collect some data on this and don't listen to "well I think", or "I'm pretty sure", or these exaggerations of the truth. As before, there is nothing to address here, as nothing real is claimed.

I am aware the new drop system is being worked on, all I was saying was how that paragraph was useless, because of that and because, since you actively participated in almost every drop rate thread, you should know that drop rates are being altered on a weekly if not daily basis to fit the idea of the dev team. That paragraph provided nothing new, original, or worthwhile, you know the system will change and you know the drop rates are altered often, you don't provide anything concrete or substantial on the topic with it. It's the same generic line said every time someone feels like complaining and it never amounts to anything. The drop rates need "revising" sounds good, but what does that mean? Do you want a blanket increase? How much? How much should the change from the current rate be? What would the effects be on the in-game economy? See what I am getting at?

these are NOT just my desires but the desires of other players. these issues weren't even raised by myself, rather, the people who are fed up with the current state of green drops. as for my lack of evidence, well i have made this perfectly clear in my post that i am aware of the lack of it so i am going to ignore your accusation.

Yes, which means nothing to counter what I said. All of you whine collectively then switch the next server to Swadian town or Swadian Castle and do it again. Night after night. No one who was whined about the drops in any of the several threads that were posted recently had anything to offer in terms of facts or a real solution. "Buff please or I quit" isn't an idea or a solution to your perceived issue. Anyways, since many players do loot green drops and legendaries, I feel confident in saying this is not an issue and no system should be changed to suit you or these "Veteran" players.

"i have cleared this up in my response to boss's post"

No you did not.

your heading is a tad inaccurate as you can see, secondly, as has been raised many times by myself and others in this thread "what kind of player deserves a legendary?". it would seem that you believe for a person to deserve a legendary they have to have the best gear and gold. if you truly believed that this is how the system should work then i can see how you think it is wrong. however, for me and many other people. the best NI players isn't the one who gets the most kills, has the best gear etc . but rather the guy who sits silently at the back replacing cades when needed, juggles/heals without being asked to and generally does his job as a team player (some gear is required for example a dep shield is more of a hinderance than a help on ragnarock let alone tier one armour which your team mates kill themselves upon). do you really want to create an environment where one could simply log into a server and leave their computer only to have just as much a chance as someone like i have mentioned above? no sir, the randomness system is perhaps the MOST unfair IMHO, but for the time being it is the most effective however players are generally fed up with it......just look at Tjav's post.

This is ridiculous. That is how you suggested the system should work, since those who leach are those who have "bad gear" and are generally poor and unable to afford it. This is plainly said in your post. You can't even define a "good and team player" without saying how they have to have some good gear. This is nonsense and it must stop. On the randomness system. You have yet to define a system that rewards being a good player, and ensuring "deserving" players get a drop, without making it based in some part on wealth. All you have said is that the wealthy end up contributing more, and therefore deserve a higher drop chance. This is particularly disgusting coming from you, who posted that "legendaries are the only way to get anywhere quick". By your logic, by damning these players from receiving drops, you put them in a state of near endless poverty in game, which continues the cycle. There is, as I said, the odd chance someone AFK or leaching will get the drop. As I also said however, admins exist to deal with issues of AFK and leachers, so take that opportunity. If he gets the drop and you didn't try to have the issue resolved, you're lazy and deserve to be punished in that way. Any system which, in any way, targets specific players for drops, will be unfair. If two players join, one of them a fresh commando and one of them a Royal guard, but both shield the entire time, and save, and tome, and do such things, there is no reason, at all, the say that the royal guard is more "deserving" of the drop than the fresh commando, just because he had better gear, so he didn't "hinder" the team. There is nothing fair about a system that denies a player a chance for a drop, green or legendary, based on anything. There is no system that can detect effort. A warden will always have an easier time killing nords than a fresh sniper, but that does not mean that the fresh sniper is somehow "leaching", or a "hinderance to the team", or "undeserving". If they both tried equally as hard, in killing nords, healing and juggling gear, the warden will always win, that is a fact. That alone is enough reason to say no system will ever be fair, since the warden will be higher up on the list and, given your definitions in these posts, and other posts, therefore more "Deserving" of the loot. I understand your frustration, but the solution is infinitely worse than the problem. If you find yourself fed up with it, take a break. Come back in a month or two and start the grind again.

Note: I only woke up a little while ago, so this post may appear hostile, aggressive, or offensive. I apologize if you take it that way, it was not intended to be so.

[Tugmund_Caoliki]

To be fair, Most of the time if the Team see a Leecher and cant get a hold of Admin, they smash their shield and lead round a Bot to smash their little AFK'ing Face in.

Problem tends to be solved easily.

[madjsoh]

You're opinion hasn't changed with the drop rate though. First off, it couldn't, as you can not tell when the drop rate is raised and lowered without data, which you do not have.

no my opinion has not changed on green drops, but that was clear from the thread. And no i cant tell when and if the drop rates have been increased or decreased, that is far from the point (point being that the green drop rates are not satisfying no matter how much the devs fluctuate them hence the numerous green drop rate rants. just ask your fellow house mates im sure they'll echo this as they are some of the people who have raised this issue) you harp on my lack of data which i have already acknowledged, and request impossible figures.....i can't think of 2 let alone 3 different groups in NI that can complete 252 rag runs on a regular basis can you? no we will have to work with what we have.

August 15th, you said if more legendaries don't drop the mod will die

yes more legendaries have dropped and i have acknowledged that in one of my responses,..... now a new issue has arised and it is being addressed here.

furthermore the point raised about legendaries was not in regards to their drop rates which i believe to be "OK" but, rather in regards to the type of person who gets them

No player, none of them at all, have done "months of ragnarok runs" only to get a hardened leather. Once more, collect some data on this and don't listen to "well I think", or "I'm pretty sure", or these exaggerations of the truth. As before, there is nothing to address here, as nothing real is claimed.

in regards to this one, perhaps you should have a word with your house leader who was in fact the victim to this drop system. exaggeration on not he is obviously unhappy with the current drop rates as well and claims that it is not worth a month of NI to get 1 water.

Yes, which means nothing to counter what I said. All of you whine collectively then switch the next server to Swadian town or Swadian Castle and do it again. Night after night. No one who was whined about the drops in any of the several threads that were posted recently had anything to offer in terms of facts or a real solution. "Buff please or I quit" isn't an idea or a solution to your perceived issue. Anyways, since many players do loot green drops and legendaries, I feel confident in saying this is not an issue and no system should be changed to suit you or these "Veteran" players.

albeit lacking in a solution, this thread offers facts to the drop rates a few months ago http://forum.nordinvasion.com/index.php?...160.0.html ,the solution as has been echoed in the various threads complaining about drops rates is put simple "buff please"

you claim many players do loot green legendaries

yet you fall prey to the same accusations you have set out against me "facts or your point is invalid" simply saying that you have no evidence and you can't be sure of anything is a double edged sword and it can be worked or both sides of the argument.

i'll respond to your first point again as the answer WAS incorrect

1: People in my group don't loot legendaries and I don't like it.

first off your heading boldly states that i would dislike for anyone not from the group of players listed in your post to loot a legendary. are you serious? that is completely insulting. as a matter of fact i am more than happy for someone to loot a legendary but in my opinion they have to deserve it. a legendary item is exactly that LEGENDARY. therefore shouldn't it go to someone who has performed equally as legendarily? you believe that i only want veteran players to succeed and obtain legendaries. you of all people must understand that there is some gear prerequisite for the challenges of ragnarok mode (i have been in lobbys before where admins have kicked players for low tier gear) and yet you claim otherwise in your post? i don't understand you are an admin and are enforcing something you preach against? and NO i have not as of yet defined such a system that rewards the deserving over the leeches however that was the point of me making this thread....to gauge ideas from the community.

All you have said is that the wealthy end up contributing more, and therefore deserve a higher drop chance

if i have stated this then i will admit the injustice of this statement however i do not see a quote of myself stating that.

in regards to your hero vs fresh T4 argument, i will level with you. sure let a players skills on the battlefield speak for itself. however NI is not simply about kill,kill,kill. each player must bring something to the team. be it a simple medic box or a short heavy barricade a player who does not bring these items in to the team are no doubt less helpful (try doing ragnarok without cades/heals). and before you come back and say that even a person who brings in a tome etc can be a hindrance i want you to know i agree with you on that.

to put an end to why i believe the current reward system is unfair, in life you have to work hard  to get where and what you want. shouldn't the same rules apply here?

[bossculeur]

Huh? Harlaus, you're in a house now?