NI, is it worth the grind?

[madjsoh]

How would a "more experienced players get better loot" principle even be implemented? How would you define someone who is a more experienced player? Someone who has played the mod for a few years? Or people who can get to Odin no problem? I don't think it's fair to say that someone who is only lvl 39 and brings in a dep shield with not the best tier armour (I'm level 44 on my alt, bring in a dep shield and only have red tunic over mail with my archer, but hey I still mananage to get 30+ kills on rag), shouldn't be entitled to getting green drops. A level 39 player could be doing a hella lot of work to help the team (and yes I know there are many people that leech etc etc but ignore that for the moment), for example being a healing, shuffling etc etc. The problem is you're grouping everyone who is level 39 into one pile and saying "Hey this person isn't level 52 or whatever and doesn't deserve any green drops, let alone a legendary". It's not as clear cut as that.

people are taking this the wrong way, the point here is that people who deserve a legendary (from truly helping the team) at the end should get it over someone who sit's in the back, kills last before boss waves leeches etc etc. i would also like to point out that the roles of healing and juggling SHOULD be the job of the whole team and not one or two players who have joined the game knowing that they will be a burden on the team. and let's cut the crap here bringing in a dep shield and obtaining only 30 kills ON RAGNAROK isn't what I'd call sufficiently helping the team (IMO). these days people try to grab on to those veteran players runs an the hopes they can steal a legendary (one example of this is found in the tricksters event when a noob snuck in TS and learnt the password only to steal a legendary on Odin). it is these kinds of players who do not deserve a legendary drop, and it is these kind of players that kill the fun for everyone else.

@ Maroon, you are right. Some of those runs were indeed fun. however, the idea of a game is to offer small achievements to help the player feel like he can achieve just as much in IRL (taken from V sauce ) with the current drop rates/system i don't feel like im making progress. a few months ago when green drops were plentiful and ragnarok was only for the "cream of the crop" in terms of NI players i might have felt some achievement. however, at this current time me including many other players as well both agree that we have been reduced to a crawl, this is a crawl that many players have just given up on preferring to quit the game all together (many of which made public their decision on the forums but many more simply preferring to fade away silently.

[Chuckwagon]

You could always raise the minimum level required for Rag (hard mode gives plenty of xp and gold for intermediate players) and  require a certain gold amount worth of gear in attempts to raise the bar a little. Not sure exactly if the gear concept could be worked out considering prices are constantly fluctuating but it might work better than trying to choose the most "helpful" players

[Titties]

people are taking this the wrong way, the point here is that people who deserve a legendary (from truly helping the team) at the end should get it over someone who sit's in the back, kills last before boss waves leeches etc etc. i would also like to point out that the roles of healing and juggling SHOULD be the job of the whole team and not one or two players who have joined the game knowing that they will be a burden on the team. and let's cut the crap here bringing in a dep shield and obtaining only 30 kills ON RAGNAROK isn't what I'd call sufficiently helping the team (IMO). these days people try to grab on to those veteran players runs an the hopes they can steal a legendary (one example of this is found in the tricksters event when a noob snuck in TS and learnt the password only to steal a legendary on Odin). it is these kinds of players who do not deserve a legendary drop, and it is these kind of players that kill the fun for everyone else.

I get that you're butt hurt so I won't bite with your comments about how I didn't sufficiently help the team when I played a Rag game, you weren't there so I get it. (I'll point out that you also read what I wrote wrong because I said 30+ kills not just 30, but hey let's cut the crap and not get pedantic about it). I also understand that healing and juggling shouldn't be just limited to one person for obvious reasons, but the fact that I suggested that one 'level 39' person do it in the first place was misinterpreted as someone that is leeching or being a noob or whatever, which of course is not the case.

Also, you say that someone gets the legendary over someone who does deserve one, how do you even propose to fix that? Legendaries are to do with luck and unfortunately you've just had rotten luck when it comes to legendaries. I know that everyone is butt hurt about the ''germans'' getting all the legendary drops but it happens and it may not be fair but it happens (but hey it's just a game).

Hm, I understand your view point with players sticking to veteran players when joining in runs, hell I've done it, but not in the hopes of getting a legendary but because I wanted to spend time with people that I know are a lot of fun (and ''veteran players'' can be intimidating as hell) and also to learn to better my skills because I'm not exactly one of the 'best' players. But okay, you've made your point but rather than just talking about how people are 'pissed off' and speaking for the veteran players on their behalf how about suggesting some kind of system to the devs about how legendary drops could work.

[-Perception-]

Uh, all this elitism and greed..
Try to imagine you were a new player, poor as usual and rather under-equipped. Now you join a server and try to do your best to help the team, howsoever insignificant those approaches may be, only to find that none of the loot goes to you, but instead those rich well-equipped high level dudes get all the desired loot.
I would quit the mod, quite instantly.
Also, posing yet another flaw of making the rewards based on the level, even someone with level 52, hero class and beyond decent equipment can spend the entire round leeching, personal experience providing sufficient proof.

Apart from that, I daresay the current system is quite balanced and fair, as everyone has equal chances, but, alas, I forgot, some of you are more equal than the others, thus they deserve a higher chance of loot..
Speaking of which, the already in other threads mentioned fix of increasing the overall droprates to get a statistically more even distribution of drops appears to me as the most coherent solution.

Doesnt fix it for legendaries though, but looking at most of those who regularly play Ragnarok, I couldnt see why you would still complain about the amount of legendaries in game..

[Tugmund_Caoliki]

I agree with Perception, from one end of the spectrum those high level players are just getting another legendary to add to their collection mean whilst you get old boots, on the other
Hand those low levels are getting loot even though you were shielding or something, I think an automatic AFK timer would be good, to kick people if they don't move for a certain amount of time.
But really, with random drops people get a relatively fair share of loot in the end even if they are unlucky.

I reckon it should stay as Random, or everyone would want to be slasher too for legendaries and no one would shield or heal etc.

[Tjav]

well, it is a hard nut to crack the one with the loot system there every1 has a point, but, and im sorry if some guys is gonna felt butthurt, i have been in the game so many times, where an complete retard, in some unknown way, has managed not to do anything worth mentioning, and suddenly a little pip comes from that one fucking player saying, i looted this (put random high tier mat) while players i know and have played with for a really long time that is perhaps some of the best guys in this mod currently, having dry periods where they loot sod all, im not gonna talk about whats fair and not taking that i got gifted equipment worth about 20 mil, but ffs, i can feel how it just hurts when i hear that some guy, who in all the games i have played, have caught my attention in the good, about 2 times, when i suddenly hear a guy saying, i looted (insert random awesome legendary) i just feel like taking and throwing my PC out the fucking window, the only fucking thing keeping me in this fucking mod is those guys that you ppl call *veteran players* and if i may say so, this term is so fucking misguiding as anything can be, i have played this mod for 1 fucking year, i have had the pleasure of playing with alot of guys in this community, even including devs every now and then, what really makes me pissed, is when i can sit in ts, talking with a guy who have played this mod for 2 months, doing fucking more then some of the guys who have been here as long as me, you just piss me off with that vet thing ur saying, there is a fucking difference between earning ur salary, and fucking slacking it off, we arent living in a fucking socialist state, ppl who do more deserves to get more, end of fucking story, i grinded my way up with nearly sod all and nearly had my 2nd heroclass, before i got gifted my stuff, so dont fucking come and say that you fucking try ur fucking best, because that is a fucking god dam fucked up lie

i am aware im pissing on alot of ppl and i am aware i will deserve a mute, but i just thought i had to say these things so i do not regret.

have a fucking nice day
and yes i fucking hate fucking grammar

[Darkfire]

[Image: tumblr_matoxv3hhy1rn95k2o1_500.gif]

how i feel right now..

[Leturoa]

couldn't be bothered to read the post just going to say find some people that make it worth the grind. If you can't call it quits

[Harlaus]

I would like to begin by saying it was not my intention to post here, but some of the suggestions and comments posted have made it needed.

Green drops:

Over the past month or so the lack of and therefore inflation in cost of green drops has been the subject of many veteran and fed up NI players. I can understand the balancing of drop rates especially that green drops is an extremely difficult task to get "right". However, at its current state in time many players including myself feel like their hard spent hours grinding away are rewarded "poorly" in this department. Drops of course vary from person to person and as such I intend to start making a log of the drops I get per run to back up and further prove this problem. I am also aware that the developers are working on a new and revised drop system to rival the current one. But for the time being we are stuck with the current one and I think I can safely say that many players believe these drop rates need...."revising"

    I don't understand what you are saying here. Green drop rates as a topic have been discussed to death. You make two claims really. One is that the randomness of green drops should be reduced or removed, and that at the current the drop rate is too low to satisfy your expectations and desires. Then, you go on to say how the Dev team is going to revise the system of loot distribution. If you know that, then there is no need to make a paragraph complaining about the current system, since it will be replaced soon. Anyways, since you made this paragraph, it won't suffice to say it lacks purpose. On the topic of the current system. Going back to your two claims.
1: The randomness of receiving Green drops should be reduced or removed. 
 
    This is a pretty straight forward idea, and one that makes less sense than the current system. Randomness is a positive feature of the drop system. What fun is there is every week you can say with good accuracy what you will get? Do you really want to log on, load up NI, get a lump and a water and quit for the week, since the randomness is gone and you can nearly perfectly say that is all you will get? Does that sound remotely better or more enjoyable than the random system that has kept you going for so long, the system that you hate and have argued against for god knows how long, and yet still keeps you going. You, by your own admission, have stated it isn't friends or fun that keeps you going. This sounds like a reason to keep the drop system as it is more than a reason to change it, to me. Additionally, the randomness of receiving drops is a large benefit. If you could reasonably expect what drops you will receive, then you could reasonably guess what everyone would receive, given enough sets of data to extrapolate from, and if you can do that, then you can make relatively accurate predictions about anything in the in-game economy, and the wealthiest of players will be able to use that information to essentially control the in-game economy. That is not a desirable outcome, and random drops are the best way to ensure that does not happen and to ensure that there is economic mobility in the game.

2: The current drop rate is too low to satisfy your expectations and desires.
 
    This one is beating a dead horse. It has been stated before that developers review the drops on a weekly, if not daily basis and adjust as needed. Saying the drop rate too low is meaningless. Which drop rate? From who's perspective? If the lump drop rate was changed two weeks ago, how would you even know? It's impossible. Additionally, you have no evidence to support this. All you are using here is your thoughts. You even said you will now record data, but you have none right now. Once you get this data, it might prove you wrong entirely. There is no reason to listen to this because there is nothing to support it as anything other than nonsense.

Legendary Drops:
This next section is once again a difficult one to address like the first, but, this is one that once again needs revising and I am aware that this one may not be possible to fix until the introduction the announced "new drop system”. This problem if you haven't clued it out for yourself is the award system of legendries. I have listened to the discussion of many TS conversations, rage posts on the forums etc. (most of these coming from veteran players) and to be honest they're "pissed off" at the kind of players looting such legendary. This I realise is an extreme generalisation and I'm sorry to the few who truly deserved their legendary drop, but, for the most part many of the people looting them sadly do not deserve them. i have been in ragnarok lobbys where the guy who looted the legendary wasn't the person who has grinded their ass of the longest or contributed their due part to the team but rather the guy sitting up at the back with his shield in the air.....leeching. This for me and many other players who feel like they bring something helpful to the team is a major slap in the face and for some people they've had enough. for example today i was part of a ragnarok lobby with many veteran players. Filling roughly 9 out of the 16 slots the rest who joined were poorly equipped for the challenge that is ragnarok mode. in good spirits we initially begun to help them to help the team. Did they accept the help?...NO, did they then contribute to the team?....NO. that run which i refer to could have definitely beaten Odin 100 times over but, rather than "carrying" these players to the boss we left, many of which did not return to play NI that day (which has been becoming more and more frequent)

Once more, this is just a few simple claims.

1: People in my group don't loot legendaries and I don't like it.
   
    This one is the easiest to address and the simplest. I figure that I'll toss out statistics as well. First off, I'm assuming your group of players, whom you label as "Veteran players" for some unknown reason, are those in Vlka, and those who participate in rag runs on a nightly basis(WS members, House of Tricksters Members, Vlka members, are the most common). According to the Legendary item thread, dating back no further than 84 days, WS_Rammy, NKA19, Shagz, and Reskan, members of your "Veteran players" who had looted a legendary. There. Your group of players has looted legendaries and you have no reason to complain.

2: People who loot legendaries don't deserve them, I know who deserves loots and who doesn't
   
    Oh stop being such a whiny person. You are in no place to judge who deserve a drop and who does not. This is absurd. There is no fairer system than random chance. Yes, there is the occasional occurrence that someone who does not do as much as others gets the drop, but it is still infinitely better, indeed, if it occurred once for every two drops, it would still be infinitely better than the same 3-4 persons with all the gold and the best gear having a such a drastically larger drop chance than others who do not have such wealth, especially if those who are on the bottom have a 0% chance at a drop. This system here exists only to benefit the small minority who have wealth, experience, and a few friends with the same. It is not fair, it doesn't come close, it's a system so you can gloat about being special and better than others, and it's despicable that one would support such a system. The same applies for those who you feel leach. It is still better than they receive a drop than this proposed system exist. Drops should not exist as a reward for the wealthy so they may get wealthier, in fact I would say those who are poorer should receive a larger drop rate to break the monopoly on wealth that older players have. To a certain extent this has happened as can be seen by some FK members who have looted legendaries and are breaking that wealthy minority in doing. 


Now, for a few closing notes.

On the subject of leaching players receiving a drop.
    In NordInvasion, you are fortunate to have an easy to reach and active Admin team to resolve such issues. If you feel a player is leaching, please contact an admin here to resolve the issue. If you don't, and he gets a legendary and you feel like whining some more, the only person to blame is yourself. You had the chance to get it resolved and dealt with, but you chose not to and you got a result you did not like. Whining on the forums will change nothing. No system should be changed because you are too lazy to use the resources at your disposal.

On the subject of Deserving and undeserving players.
    The only thing that matters is what you do. You yourself admit that gear is no requisite for doing well. Anyone can contribute to the team, poor or rich and high level or low. Some choose not to, true, and that is covered above. However, just because a person lacks the best gear, does not exclude them from this mystical land of "Veteran and deserving". Similarly, just because someone has some of the best gear available and is a hero class, does not mean they are immune from not contributing. I have seen one of the richest players around do 20 waves of Ragnarok, barely juggle, not healing, and in general barely doing anything, but, since he is a "Veteran and deserving" player to you, you would say he deserves a drop more than the level 39 who killed nords, juggled and or healed as well? Nonsense. There is no way to accurately judge who deserves and who does not, and since we cannot do that accurately the best system remains random chance, even with the faults it has.


Note: Since you gave no definition of "Veteran player" and "Deserving/Underserving", nor any standard of leaching, I simply put in what makes the most sense based on the post and your previous posts on the subject. If it is wrong, please correct me. Additionally, as I said, I did not want to post here. This might come of as a bit angry or upset, if so, it is not meant to be directed at you, or to show dislike of you, and I apologize if you find it that way.

[evildan]

The answer to your question is it is not worth it, Madjosh you should just  take a break from the game and wait for it tweaked/fixed! who the hell wants to grind all month for 1 water!