NI, is it worth the grind?

[Shagz]

I didn't even bother reading the last post from Harlaus.

So when was the last time you were playing NI with players instead of leaving due to it being a bad server?
I see long-winded posts and a lot of valid points from Harlaus, due to this being a forum however, when was the last time you stuck around with us for a rag run?

I just see way too many posts and player bashing, blah blah die for shit and tome.

Please go back to the first page stated at November 22, 2013, 10:41:38 AM
PM Madjosh if it involves anything long winded.

[Maroon]

not the point? just read and you ll see that form very 1st post its the point of this thread
Low drop rate frustrates some players and they starting blaming others for  getting drops.
That's silly for me . its like "Mummy they took my toys  :'( :'( :'("
btw . I agree that drop rate is too low  and it need revision but I said that already in evilban thead  this one is like spam for me

Continuing on this point (sorry Harlaus, but that post is way too long for me to effectively break down and write about).
What you state in this post, is something else than your previous one. In there you said:

Exactly
everyone is allowed on public server as long as he behave ,You cant kick him bcoz u don't like his armor or bcoz he got less kill than one  think acceptable . Wanna play with "pro players " set an event , House is allowed up to 2 events per week , So  that can give you an allied event every day if your friends from other houses use their allowance too. You got tools just use them

Here you were talking about the old players wanting to be completely seperated from the rest of the players, which isn't true, and which this thread ("NI, is it worth the grind") is not about.
What you said might be a solution to old players wanting seperation, if it were not for the fact that no one is looking for that.
Once again, do not ask people to read a thread when your post does not coincide with the actual topic= unlike your second post.
Anyway, moving on.

[Malong]

Like fuck it doesn't take a rocket scientist to notice things are at issue. Its got to the stage where green drops are so rare that people do not want to play with certain players any more or leechers or non helpers. Why waste your time playing with people who annoy for little or nothing and then they are rewarded. Where as before everyone would get something and wouldn't give a shit who they played with for that reason. This has now caused a rift in the community all down to  something as stupid as drops.

A thousand times: this! It's disheartening to hear/see "Yeah, mlg, I got into this server, rough ridas, g!" from some [noun with negative connotation] who is likely a hindrance and then hear/see "I got a [whatever], what's that worth?" from that same person. Yes people can make events (and we do), but what happened to just impromptu runs with your friends on random week(days|nights)? Do people really want to relegate players to only playing during events?

And for the record, randomness is only fair if everyone is putting forth the same amount of effort (which is presupposed to not be the case in madjosh's, dan's, and so on's posts). Otherwise I hope the "entirely new mathematical what-not" (thanks for working on this by the way) works like a weighted mean or expected value.

[Harlaus]

Spoilered since large blocks of text are annoying to scroll through.

Spoiler

Harlaus let me just point out this was meant to be a discussion or debate if you will... not a slur campaign like you seem to think it is for some strange reason, I mean how offensive can you be, constantly calling players (myself included im sure when you say "Your group") whiners among things, Why have you taken such offense to this thread?? It is a issue that is constantly brought back into light so obviously there is a issue here that needs to be answered by a DEV and not other people talking for them. 

To be clear, you were not included when I said "Your group". There are two to three Vlka persons in that who know who they are. I did not intend it to be and do not want it to be interpreted as a blanket statement about Vlka and its members. The reason I have taken the position I have, and said what I have in this thread is because this thread is a result of what is, to me, a despicable behaviour and one which I have no patience or tolerance for any longer. If that looks like a slur campaign to you, so be it. It is not something which I enjoy having to do, but I feel compelled to do so, since there appears to be no major expressed opposition to the idea. Furthermore, if this a discussion, as you said, then there is every reason why I should post. Whether or not this is a question a Dev should answer is irrelevant. You said this thread is a discussion. I have discussed. Also, I don't feel as though I was speaking for a Dev or any dev, nor have I intended to. I have said what is on my mind on this topic= you can interpret how I was speaking any way you want though.

Also while I'm typing about devs and talking for them, let me just point out a fact for you harlaus.
you seem to think that you know what the devs do behind the scenes on the mod constantly talking for them about things you have absolutely NO clue about...
Quote from: Harlaus on November 23, 2013, 12:49:59 PM
you should know that drop rates are being altered on a weekly if not daily basis to fit the idea of the dev team.
There is no possible way you know this...

I like to think we have always proven very responsive to issues raised by the community, especially in relation to loot, and drops are changed on a weekly and often daily basis.

There is every possible way I could know this, and I feel as though it was a fair statement to make on my part, given that Hyper himself said the same thing. In that regard I knew and know exactly what I was saying and I feel I am quite correct when I said it. I would have done the complete quote formatting, but since the topic was locked I was unable to. The thread can be found here: http://forum.nordinvasion.com/index.php?...#msg148600.

How about we try to keep it civilised from now on and if you have any major objections to this thread i suggest you do what mad josh said in the first place so you dont offend people like myself and alot of the other players he is talking about...

I have taken note to both your and Legends comment on my use of language and hopefully my future posts will appear less aggressive on this topic. I have already left notes in the posts where no offence was meant, and once more offer apologies if you or anyone felt unfairly offended by them.

I mean madjosh has done this in the most polite way possible only to have his thread bombed by you and it was a big harlaus rage bomb at that.

I stand by posting here, and what I said, albeit it was perhaps aggressive and I do apologize as said above.

I didn't even bother reading the last post from Harlaus.

So when was the last time you were playing NI with players instead of leaving due to it being a bad server?
I see long-winded posts and a lot of valid points from Harlaus, due to this being a forum however, when was the last time you stuck around with us for a rag run?

Well, just a few hours ago I played NI with people. I have not been participating in the ragnarok runs you describe for reasons which can either be assumed or I can provide through PM, Steam or IRC. I figure I should at least give you a response here.

Anyways, I've said most everything I have or desire to say, so there is little to no point in me giving continued responses since they would just be redundant. If anyone wants to continue this through PM, go ahead, since that is what I hear suggested from so many persons.

[Sudoku_killer]

:o lol Maroon . don't make me lough. You obviously got some problem with me,  beat it boy.
besides I didn't say they want to separate , just gave a way out for those who don't want to  see some new or low lvl players getting drops . and this is the part of this thread even You certainly  can understand this.
2nd thing  Since when You become voice of the other ppl in this community .
3 rd  I asked You to read  I have no doubt You can but  your understanding is somehow blinded by your prejudice towards me lol.

[Tugmund_Caoliki]

Putting it simply like. Shit all ever drops and on the very rare occasion a mat does drop it goes to some undeserving bellend who probably shouldnt even be on a rag server.

[k4mi]

I don't want to cut the discussion at this point but some things needs to be cleared out:
First of all about loot chances compared to a 'value' of a player.
This is in theory a good idea. But how would you value the skills, contributions from a player?
Does the one shielder contribute more to the game if he gets more damage then the other shielder next to him ?
Is the healer more valuable if the team gets more damage so he heals more of them ?
Isn't the most valued player the guy who always switches his character / equip to something that would help the entire team instead of playing the char he would like to play ?
There are so many factors for valuing a player and most of them are subjective, so it's impossible to assign a number to it without giving the possibility to abuse the system.

---

About the moaning: 'Always the leechers and AFK players get the loot'.
[irony] Ofc the system is designed like that. We don't want active people to get the loot -_- [/irony]
If you see leeching players jump to IRC and let the admins do their job. In addition we have a reporting system that can be used.

---

NI is and will be a grinding game. That means loots will still be random because that is the most equal system you can have ( Same chances for everyone).
The numbers or the chances are obviously not perfect at the moment ( I'd even say they will never be perfect ) but we are trying to assign chances that fits to game mode / amount of players / numbers of bots / item needed for crafting.
That includes a massive mathematical preparation before changes will kick in.

Anyway, I am always open for suggestions and discussions but saying: 'Raise legendary drop rate', 'Give me more green drops' or ' I always have bad luck' wont help at all.

---

Last but not least: Try to focus on your loots / on the loots of the whole server and stop saying 'person X,Y got a legendary and he doesn't deserve it'.
I am sick of reading some post like: 'All the Germans get the loot', 'Only leechers get the loot' or 'Player X always joins Ragnarok games to steal loot from the veterans'.
First of all it's not true, second off it results that people avoiding certain houses or people.
Of course it's your right to avoid someone but I will not allow any public downgrading of players because of their house or nationality.

[evildan]

For me im not sure there is much you can do with the loot system. Rates would need to be buffed significantly or certain mobs/bosses would need to have 100% drop rate for green drops. For example prior to January last year a Odin run where you would waste 3 hrs on a run pretty much almost every player on the server would get 1 to maybe even 3 green drops (example of what you would get before Sulphur/scale/wog a run) which i believe is a fair amount for the amount of hour put in per run. I am currently on over 10 ragnarok runs in return i have got 1 hardened leather a considerable amount of players are on similar runs to that. i would propose just buffing the rate for a week and watching the improvements in the community. It would lead to more full public servers, less arguments in servers if everyone got a return, less of these stupid report threads and maybe Vets will put up with the players that annoy again. Before January the boss waves would usually drop -  close to4 green drops - examples tricksters would drop 3-4 sulphurs - valks 3-4 waters, Where as now they would drop 1 maybe 2 if lucky, more examples you just need to look how long it takes to craft a tome or barrel compared to before, if you would play solidly for a month maybe around 70-80 hrs your return would be 10-15 lead now you would be lucky to have 1.  Waters/lead/sulphur/used to be around 20k each, now they are all a hell of alot more because stuff is just not dropping. You just need to look at how things were before January now and compare to now, you know when 7-8 servers were full and there were no problems and try and get back to those roots. But yeh i would propose buffing them considerably for a week and watching a huge improvement everywhere or dont do that and watch the community dwindle even more.

[madjsoh]

I don't want to cut the discussion at this point but some things needs to be cleared out:
First of all about loot chances compared to a 'value' of a player.
This is in theory a good idea. But how would you value the skills, contributions from a player?
Does the one shielder contribute more to the game if he gets more damage then the other shielder next to him ?
Is the healer more valuable if the team gets more damage so he heals more of them ?
Isn't the most valued player the guy who always switches his character / equip to something that would help the entire team instead of playing the char he would like to play ?
There are so many factors for valuing a player and most of them are subjective, so it's impossible to assign a number to it without giving the possibility to abuse the system.

---

About the moaning: 'Always the leechers and AFK players get the loot'.
[irony] Ofc the system is designed like that. We don't want active people to get the loot -_- [/irony]
If you see leeching players jump to IRC and let the admins do their job. In addition we have a reporting system that can be used.

---

NI is and will be a grinding game. That means loots will still be random because that is the most equal system you can have ( Same chances for everyone).
The numbers or the chances are obviously not perfect at the moment ( I'd even say they will never be perfect ) but we are trying to assign chances that fits to game mode / amount of players / numbers of bots / item needed for crafting.
That includes a massive mathematical preparation before changes will kick in.

Anyway, I am always open for suggestions and discussions but saying: 'Raise legendary drop rate', 'Give me more green drops' or ' I always have bad luck' wont help at all.

---

Last but not least: Try to focus on your loots / on the loots of the whole server and stop saying 'person X,Y got a legendary and he doesn't deserve it'.
I am sick of reading some post like: 'All the Germans get the loot', 'Only leechers get the loot' or 'Player X always joins Ragnarok games to steal loot from the veterans'.
First of all it's not true, second off it results that people avoiding certain houses or people.
Of course it's your right to avoid someone but I will not allow any public downgrading of players because of their house or nationality.

point one (legendary chances compared to "value" of a player)

perhaps I including others have been looking at this the wrong way. Im sure everyone mature could agree that they're more than happy to see someone who has done their job in the team loot a legendary. But, what we don't want to see is those people that drag the team down loot them. perhaps instead of offering loot chance per valuable player it could be done by loot chance decreased for all NON- helpful players. not entirely sure how this could be calculated but perhaps they could have a lower drop chance for time spent inactive, low amounts of kills. of course there would be a few loop-holes such as what to do with shielders etc but maybe then the  shield damage multiplier could come into play?

as for raising the legendary drop rate, that was never the intention of this topic. but, green drops in my opinion could do with a bit of a buff i know im not only speaking for myself (as many others have expressed in this topic) when i say that i feel extremely under-rewarded for my time spent playing this mod. just today i got my first green drop to add to my stats chart in 6 rag runs and 8 hards (excluding sparkles necklaces etc) that to me is a complete troll.

[Legend]

As stated several times, devs are looking for a complete overhaul of the drop-system. If you are just unhappy playing this mod, or being a blatant git who cannot compensate what already is written, then why don`t you just quit such a time wasting mod , you do not even enjoy? Please do so. End of the "Discussion" here. Everything has been said plenty of times.