Kiting stuff, keep it here!

[clickeverywhere]

The imminent implementation of the new loot system (rumored to be less rewarding for small groups) seems like it would be a sufficient deterrent against kiting. Removing every opportunity for kiting would be overkill. Further discouraging kiting should be unnecessary with this new loot system. To add to that, not every player can kite successfully because of the skill that it takes.

Even if kiting was not intended to be a part of the game, I don't see any harm in it continuing to exist for the same reasons as above. Divergent play styles should be embraced. They are a testament to the ingenuity and flexibility of the community.

Many of the arguments against kiting have cited a lack of "teamwork" as a reason for why it should be removed, but kiting is a style of play that doesn't preclude teamwork. I would even go so far as to say it requires phenomenal teamwork. It becomes necessary to carry your own weight when the team consists only of you and maybe two other players (though you could still kite with larger groups). Unfortunately, past a certain point, each additional member gives diminishing returns. This is true for kiting and this is true when using a shield wall.

As an aside: If you split the word teamwork up, you get the words team and work. Both are very important, because it's not teamwork if half the team doesn't do any work!

I don't see the harm in allowing kiting as long as kiting players do not negatively affect the gameplay experience of others. I heard recently that two players joined a near-full server and started kiting the wave away while the majority of the team was using barricades. This is disruptive behavior and I am most definitely against it.

[Winter]

I see alot of players say yea great remove kiting as this is a team based mod, maybe players like you dont put 30hrs+  a week into this mod? If you did you would realize that playing in a team is NOT ALWAYS a option, but sitting around for 30mins or so waiting for a good kiting map is, or was xD

So you want to play this game?  I won't post any arguments, as people are already doing that for me, I'm just going to respond to this one

I put in far more than 30 hours a week and I have a good 4100 hours logged in this game so far, and I support everything Maroon, Terath, and other like-minded people have said.  I even agree with Click, to an extent :O

Actually, my second sentence was a lie.  If you don't kite for drops and you actually kite for fun, then wouldn't a greater challenge be more fun even if it means you cannot get as far on your own?  It seems most maps just had their kiting circuits closed, which only limits the amount of times you can run around in circles with the bots chasing you.  Running around in circles doesn't require skill.  Now you have to kill them before you run out of places to run through.  That takes skill, have fun

[The Cid]

[quote author=The Cid link=topic=24687.msg172235#msg172235 date=1396131286]
I see alot of players say yea great remove kiting as this is a team based mod, maybe players like you dont put 30hrs+  a week into this mod? If you did you would realize that playing in a team is NOT ALWAYS a option, but sitting around for 30mins or so waiting for a good kiting map is, or was xD

So you want to play this game?  I won't post any arguments, as people are already doing that for me, I'm just going to respond to this one

I put in far more than 30 hours a week and I have a good 4100 hours logged in this game so far, and I support everything Maroon, Terath, and other like-minded people have said.  I even agree with Click, to an extent :O

Actually, my second sentence was a lie.  If you don't kite for drops and you actually kite for fun, then wouldn't a greater challenge be more fun even if it means you cannot get as far on your own?  It seems most maps just had their kiting circuits closed, which only limits the amount of times you can run around in circles with the bots chasing you.  Running around in circles doesn't require skill.  Now you have to kill them before you run out of places to run through.  That takes skill, have fun
[/quote]

I never kite for drops, for me its the only option when players lack.  Kiting does take a certain skill, in my experience the best players at kiting are more than often the best players in full server games as well.

[Maroon]

[quote author=Winter link=topic=24687.msg172268#msg172268 date=1396139193]
[quote author=The Cid link=topic=24687.msg172235#msg172235 date=1396131286]
I see alot of players say yea great remove kiting as this is a team based mod, maybe players like you dont put 30hrs+  a week into this mod? If you did you would realize that playing in a team is NOT ALWAYS a option, but sitting around for 30mins or so waiting for a good kiting map is, or was xD

So you want to play this game?  I won't post any arguments, as people are already doing that for me, I'm just going to respond to this one

I put in far more than 30 hours a week and I have a good 4100 hours logged in this game so far, and I support everything Maroon, Terath, and other like-minded people have said.  I even agree with Click, to an extent :O

Actually, my second sentence was a lie.  If you don't kite for drops and you actually kite for fun, then wouldn't a greater challenge be more fun even if it means you cannot get as far on your own?  It seems most maps just had their kiting circuits closed, which only limits the amount of times you can run around in circles with the bots chasing you.  Running around in circles doesn't require skill.  Now you have to kill them before you run out of places to run through.  That takes skill, have fun
[/quote]

I never kite for drops, for me its the only option when players lack.  Kiting does take a certain skill, in my experience the best players at kiting are more than often the best players in full server games as well.
[/quote]

And by best you mean having the most kills? Because that doesn't really define best in NI.

[Leberkass]

I absolutely support what click said.
The thing that kiting is just part of the great mod and now it is kind of taken out of the mod.

@Maroon, Winter and Handef: Sure it is not that easy to kite to nowadays and NI should be a challenge, but these days you cannot kite anymore in larger groups of 3-6, because everyone is just running around like crazy, BECAUSE you cannot run around in circles anymore. I was pretty often on Port Assault on Hard and you could even do a Ragnar Kite with 12 people without seeing half of the team dieing, but now you cannot kite in larger groups, because you will just wipe. That will only support the question to new joiners on the server if they can leave in my opinion.

I am just saying that people are just saying well why should they donate if that mod is not that fun anymore as it was one week ago and they have just a lack of interest about the mod. I am not saying kiting is still not possible, but not anymore in larger groups and always wipe, because to many people join a server and it is already difficult enough to kite alone. That will just let the people think: "Nah, I do not feel like playing NI anymore, because I will only play events"

The thing is when I started playing NI, there was the good old First Defence. You could beat Thor with 5! SHCs and only some barrels and could just make a run out of nothing with not so many things needed and nobody cared about any loot, because they just wanted to have fun in this mod.

I am missing those old times when most people just cared about having fun in the mod and work for a run and not just staying afk in the base and doing nothing.
Hope this afk runs will stop soon and we are getting back to the good old times
Greets Tarrod

[Winter]

it is not that easy to kite to nowadays and NI should be a challenge, but these days you cannot kite anymore in larger groups of 3-6, because everyone is just running around like crazy, BECAUSE you cannot run around in circles anymore. I was pretty often on Port Assault on Hard and you could even do a Ragnar Kite with 12 people without seeing half of the team dieing, but now you cannot kite in larger groups, because you will just wipe.

And on the flip side one or two people could and did kite 16 people's worth of bots alone outside of experience range from wave 4 to 16.

[clickeverywhere]

If you don't kite for drops and you actually kite for fun, then wouldn't a greater challenge be more fun even if it means you cannot get as far on your own?

It's only fun if the challenges are surmountable I would imagine. Whether or not they are at the moment, I'm not sure. I haven't had the time to play through every map update yet. Personally, I'm pretty bad at kiting. I just think it would be a shame if the trend in map updates led to the death of kiting.

Running around in circles doesn't require skill.  Now you have to kill them before you run out of places to run through.  That takes skill, have fun

Running around in circles really doesn't require skill, but nobody said it does. I would, however, agree with anyone who says that kiting takes more skill than being in a shield wall 

Just for the sake of argument, let me list all the things that require no skill when playing in a shield wall:

1. Spam healing.
2. Spam slashing.
3. Shielding.
4. Shooting at helpless Nords (who aren't even moving for the most part!)
5. Shuffling items.
6. Building barricades.
7. Standing around not killing Nords.

Oh look, that's pretty much everything you do in a shield wall. Isn't that a surprise? It's not, because that is the point behind the shield wall. To have a low skill requirement so there are no barriers to entry. Anybody can participate as long as they're paying the least bit of attention (or set up a macro and give the game an occasional glance -- don't do this though, you'll get banned). The majority of players behind the shield wall could be replaced by machines considering how simple their tasks are. I believe this would be what they call mechanization of the workforce (you lose your real life job to machines, and then you lose your in-game job to machines :[).

But I digress. Let's talk about kiting. Why wouldn't you kite for drops? Do you enjoy doing taxing work for no reward too? The new loot system should already address the imbalanced benefits so I see no point arguing about this.

Two people are kiting away from the rest of the team, denying the team experience and drops? Kick one of them and then ask the other if he'd like to play with the rest of the team.*

*Don't take this seriously. Always follow proper admin procedure when dealing with troublemakers.

There isn't much more to say on the topic. I'm sure there are still maps where you can kite to Ragnar in circulation and it's not all doom and gloom for kiting.  I hope what I've said has had some effect on the direction of the mod. Even if it doesn't, this thread has been moderately entertaining and I've had some fun. 4/10. Thank you to all who participated, and thanks to the devs for their hard work in keeping this mod alive. Have fun and I'll see you in-game.

[Revan]

I think the Devs have the best overview on what needs to be addressed/fixed, and if they change maps to make kiting harder, then there was most likely an imbalance of some kind. Also, often when such changes occur, something else is being released later which makes this mod even more awesome than it already is, so I would suggest we all show some patience and give the Devs some time.

Lastly, on a personal note, all this talk about "kiting is dying" and "people will stop playing if they can't kite" sounds like hyperbole to me. Things change (e.g. maps lost their cading spot just to have an even better one added later), and it's a good idea to just cope with the situation like a man until it changes again.

[Legend]

Despite me being awefull in sc2 today , let me reconsider this out of my perspective.


1. Spam healing. (No, a good healer does not spam healing, but take oversight and use healing if someone gets hurt(Overseer)
2. Spam slashing./No, a good slasher changes position, slashing angle slightly or more directly if needed to fit in another slasher or to improve damage outcome)
3. Shielding. (Really? No! Also on the high shielding skills you need to arrange the angle of your shielding, charge out for range simultaneously with your shielding comrades to engage the ranged, and to not hinder your slashing counterparts)
4. Shooting at helpless Nords (who aren't even moving for the most part!) /even there you need to communicate with your ranged brothers who shoots what , next to shieldline, enemies ranged, when to popp a barrel and when to cover, who is using which gap etc.)
5. Shuffling items. Good point there, this is an unnecessary necessarity which will be changed soon ( i hope at least)
6. Building barricades. Yup. Still, building barricades can`t be done without teamwork and using brains.
7. Standing around not killing Nords.Like... Leechers... or AFKER`s ...wherefore we got Admins.

[madjsoh]

the tone on this thread seems to be focused on which is the harder of the only two play styles we have left in NI (kitting and shielding). the latter we can all admit requiring less skill but albeit more coordination. I have been through the developer interviews and in my interpretation it would seem they want teams to be more mobile rather and that the static shield wall with cades was only meant to be temporary. these new maps are not in keeping with mobility, the cade spots given are extremely static and simple to spot requiring little to no skill in order to setup and click you mouse to the final boss. kitting on the other hand is the closest thing we have to what i interpret the devs ideological play style. before people run in and argue till the sun goes down that kitting is a selfish means to get ahead that goes against the developers ideas on teamwork, well i say bullshit.

I've seen and been in teams of 16 players all kitting together on the old first defence. that was back in the day when you saw 2-3 people kitting the map and knew that you could join and get somewhere with a bit of skill. this was the same for many other people as the servers often filled within 5 minutes. it didn't matter what class you played, first defence could catter to all ranging from the following:

1) a moving shield-wall that could cover the damage dealers in the team as well as bottlenecking nords in certain areas allowing distance between set damage dealers and the nords.
2) mobility, first defence was the prime example of a mobile map. there was a reason why so few cades were needed on that map, because, if the cades did fall (and 70 percent of the time they did) then your team could simply move to the next spot, moving around the map picking of nords slowly at a time.
3) lastly and most importantly, first defence provided a place to test your own abilities against the nord invasion. those who prefer the comfort of themselves while gaming, or simply could not find a server with people on it (which is often the case for some people living in certain time zones) could simply kite away. no it wasn't easy and it did require a great deal of skill and high tier equipment to get far on your own and i know of only a couple that fill those requirements.

first defence was the perfect map...until it was griefed.

we can see here that kitting is NOT the demon worship that people are making it out to be, but, rather, is just another play-style that people enjoy. click has touched on this earlier and i am inclined to agree that having diversity in the mod is extremely important in holding peoples interest and thus increasing the mod's playability.

some will argue that having maps such as first defence ruined other maps as they always get passed up or never played. to you mappers I say, take it upon yourselves to create even better and more enjoyable maps to rival rather than ruining the work of others so as to FORCE people to play your maps. this is not good sport... there are some instances where maps do get boring but ruining the old maps solves nothing.

kitting is the reason some people play this mod, to force them to play your way is not what gaming is about. I say let people choose how they wan't to play and do your best to accommodate all interests rather than sitting maliciously biased in favour of one play style that is not the enjoyment of all.

p.s. adding a pol to this topic wouldn't be all that bad