Better boots for Pavise Champion.

[Leberkass]

Because an increase in survivability is a Pavise Champion trait, not an Aventurier one.

But tbh no Bot will ever aim for boots, expect ranged guys and that still does not save your life.
I support this idea, but I think some other hero classes may have a use of these boots aswell, because you get acces to Aegis and SoK when you reach Pavise.
So I would support the suggestion that every hero class can use the Swadian Boots more than only Pavise

[Maroon]

[quote author=Maroon link=topic=30151.msg191644#msg191644 date=1407330630]
Because an increase in survivability is a Pavise Champion trait, not an Aventurier one.

But tbh no Bot will ever aim for boots, expect ranged guys and that still does not save your life.
I support this idea, but I think some other hero classes may have a use of these boots aswell, because you get acces to Aegis and SoK when you reach Pavise.
So I would support the suggestion that every hero class can use the Swadian Boots more than only Pavise
[/quote]

If Nords don't aim for the leg, why would any class need boots then? When you're standing on a slope or sitting on horseback, leg armor is very important, and since the Pavise is supposed to be the tanky crossbowman hero, it's only logical that it should be the only one with access to it. Though something between Plated Boots and Swadian Boots for Sharpshooters in general would be nice.

[Harlaus]

If Nords don't aim for the leg, why would any class need boots then? When you're standing on a slope or sitting on horseback, leg armor is very important, and since the Pavise is supposed to be the tanky crossbowman hero, it's only logical that it should be the only one with access to it. Though something between Plated Boots and Swadian Boots for Sharpshooters in general would be nice.

I agree it's nice to say that a hero is meant for X, so only it should be given things related to X, but that just creates bad classes and item distribution. As it stands, Adventurier is a horribly UP hero class and only three people have chosen it(As far the Winters list is concerned), which is only 6% of all crossbow heros. Giving it something, anything, to make it a wanted class is proper balance. If you just gave it another set of boots that every sharpshooter hero class could get, the class would be as disliked then as it is now. Giving it access to Swadian boots along with Pavise champions would be a step in the right direction, though the class will probably never be liked no matter what.

[Maroon]

But would giving buffs that are concerning a different area than that specific class not make that balance all over the place? That would be like giving the Legionnaire more 2-handed wpf, or the Sentinel heavy armor.

[Harlaus]

1: It's infinitely better than doing nothing having it as disliked and underpowered as it is now, if someone made a good post with a fix for the class that would be better, but no one has done that yet, and I don't expect to see it soon.

2: The Adventurier focus' on one handed skill. However, it gains no survivability bonus to actually make use of its higher melee skills in any real way. Now, I'll say the melee bonus is useless anyways, but that's irrelevant right now. It can't use anything it gets, so the best option is giving it stuff so that it can use what it gets. Giving it more armor would complement the idea of it being competent at melee, and it would make it more interesting as a class. Even if you don't give it more armor, doing nothing and leaving it broken in the name of class purity is a joke.

[Leberkass]

[quote author=Tarrod link=topic=30151.msg191657#msg191657 date=1407335349]
[quote author=Maroon link=topic=30151.msg191644#msg191644 date=1407330630]
Because an increase in survivability is a Pavise Champion trait, not an Aventurier one.

But tbh no Bot will ever aim for boots, expect ranged guys and that still does not save your life.
I support this idea, but I think some other hero classes may have a use of these boots aswell, because you get acces to Aegis and SoK when you reach Pavise.
So I would support the suggestion that every hero class can use the Swadian Boots more than only Pavise
[/quote]

If Nords don't aim for the leg, why would any class need boots then? When you're standing on a slope or sitting on horseback, leg armor is very important, and since the Pavise is supposed to be the tanky crossbowman hero, it's only logical that it should be the only one with access to it. Though something between Plated Boots and Swadian Boots for Sharpshooters in general would be nice.
[/quote]
I said only ranged guys aim for feets and body, or did you ever see a melee guy aiming for your boots?
And believe me, if you have shielded hundreds of Hard and Rag Runs you know what you are talking about, if you get shoot or not. Especially the Jotne and Sniper wave are deadly, but no melee guy attacks your boots, only your head and body.

1: It's infinitely better than doing nothing having it as disliked and underpowered as it is now, if someone made a good post with a fix for the class that would be better, but no one has done that yet, and I don't expect to see it soon.

2: The Adventurier focus' on one handed skill. However, it gains no survivability bonus to actually make use of its higher melee skills in any real way. Now, I'll say the melee bonus is useless anyways, but that's irrelevant right now. It can't use anything it gets, so the best option is giving it stuff so that it can use what it gets. Giving it more armor would complement the idea of it being competent at melee, and it would make it more interesting as a class. Even if you don't give it more armor, doing nothing and leaving it broken in the name of class purity is a joke.

Exactly. I would rather support more items for classes that are used not so often as Legionnaire, Sentinel, Ranger, Aventurier or Halberdier.
Those classes rather need new items than classes like Pavise Champion. Sure Pavise is chosen to be a shielding tank next to the Commandos. But the idea to give Pavise and Aventurier the acces to Swadian Boots, would bring the Aventurier class more close to the most liked Chosen Marksman class.

But would giving buffs that are concerning a different area than that specific class not make that balance all over the place? That would be like giving the Legionnaire more 2-handed wpf, or the Sentinel heavy armor.

The actual "job" of a Pavise Champion is shooting and shielding if there is noone else or am I wrong? Not arguing like a tank and rush the enemies, because that is the job of the Commandos or Halberdiers.
So it would also be kind of the same buff a Sentinel has got with heavier armor. A buff would be really nice for Sentinel, but definitely not out of the class's job.
Yours most sincerely
Tarrod

PS: Not offending anyone, but this is my statement to this topic.

[Maroon]

I seem to have struck some nerves with my reasoning, this was not at all my intention. I'm not at all saying the Aventurier should not get a buff. But that's not the discussion at hand. I feel that the currently discussed item would fit best with the Pavise as it is one of the points of that class as it stands now. Could heavier armor fit the Aventurier better than the Pavise? Maybe. But in that case it should get all the extra armor the Pavise has access to (which is only its Ironflesh buff and the Black Armor so far), because otherwise you'd have two Hero classes with an identical point of focus, while the entire purpose of Hero classes is to specialize in different areas.

I said only ranged guys aim for feets and body, or did you ever see a melee guy aiming for your boots?

I've given two situations of the top of my head where you're likely to be hit in the foot by a bot, which is when you're standing higher than the bot, or when you're fighting from horseback.

[Leberkass]

[quote author=Tarrod link=topic=30151.msg191667#msg191667 date=1407341266]
I said only ranged guys aim for feets and body, or did you ever see a melee guy aiming for your boots?

I've given two situations of the top of my head where you're likely to be hit in the foot by a bot, which is when you're standing higher than the bot, or when you're fighting from horseback.
[/quote]
Ye, sorry forgot about the Cav mode. You them for it true dat, but when you are higher than your enemy, for example the old cading spot of Hidden Cave, then you only get hit from the side, so the only use for a shielder would be against ranged, on a horse or in a stupid situation where he is above the enemies.

I seem to have struck some nerves with my reasoning, this was not at all my intention. I'm not at all saying the Aventurier should not get a buff. But that's not the discussion at hand. I feel that the currently discussed item would fit best with the Pavise as it is one of the points of that class as it stands now. Could heavier armor fit the Aventurier better than the Pavise? Maybe. But in that case it should get all the extra armor the Pavise has access to (which is only its Ironflesh buff and the Black Armor so far), because otherwise you'd have two Hero classes with an identical point of focus, while the entire purpose of Hero classes is to specialize in different areas.

Sure a hero class specifies its use like shielde or so, but there should be better Sharpshooter boots at all, so like Commandos they all have access to Swadian and Defender Boots. Maybe boots with -1 armor than Swadian Boots, but this should be discussed somewhere else.

[Harlaus]

I seem to have struck some nerves with my reasoning, this was not at all my intention. I'm not at all saying the Aventurier should not get a buff. But that's not the discussion at hand. I feel that the currently discussed item would fit best with the Pavise as it is one of the points of that class as it stands now. Could heavier armor fit the Aventurier better than the Pavise? Maybe. But in that case it should get all the extra armor the Pavise has access to (which is only its Ironflesh buff and the Black Armor so far), because otherwise you'd have two Hero classes with an identical point of focus, while the entire purpose of Hero classes is to specialize in different areas.

Should pavise get swadian boots? Sure, it'd be cute. Should adventurier also get them? Yes, it'd be good for everyone. The point of the pavise champion is to be OP and be a tank, giving adventurier some boots as well really won't ruin the divine pavise champion. Does pavise deserve some buffs? Sure why not. Does it deserve them in place of actually underpowered and horrible classes getting fixed? Only when the goal is to preserve "specializations" and "purity" which is, obviously, a horrible idea.

In short, give the boots to adventurier and pavise champion, it's a simple conclusion.

[Hawkens]

Why not give swadian boots to crossbowmen in general?