The Item and Class Stat Balance Thread

[GheerBox]

Could be fun. Can that sort of attack go through a shield wall or would it have a limited use outside the barricades only?

[Winter]

Could be fun. Can that sort of attack go through a shield wall or would it have a limited use outside the barricades only?

It depends greatly on the weapon length and how far apart the shielders are from each other.  It is similar to using a Jormungandr/other overhead stab polearm.  We were able to successfully get two people stabbing in a single spot recently.  It is usually possible, but in situations where shielders cram together tightly the slashing is a lot easier to pull off.

This wouldn't be so much as a "replace the slash attack" so much as a cool addition for a somewhat unique mechanic.  A good example was last night when Tsuki charged Thor with a Mjolnir and I stood a little bit behind and to the side of him stabbing with the AGS to help keep him down.

[Terath]

[quote author=GheerBox link=topic=47440.msg243160#msg243160 date=1442600147]
Could be fun. Can that sort of attack go through a shield wall or would it have a limited use outside the barricades only?

It depends greatly on the weapon length and how far apart the shielders are from each other.  It is similar to using a Jormungandr/other overhead stab polearm.  We were able to successfully get two people stabbing in a single spot recently.  It is usually possible, but in situations where shielders cram together tightly the slashing is a lot easier to pull off.

This wouldn't be so much as a "replace the slash attack" so much as a cool addition for a somewhat unique mechanic.  A good example was last night when Tsuki charged Thor with a Mjolnir and I stood a little bit behind and to the side of him stabbing with the AGS to help keep him down.
[/quote]

After reading this entire blunt sword stab conversation, I'm completely down with this idea. The problem is that this wouldn't affect very many current in-game models -- there's the AGS, the war cleavers, and a few more, maybe. Unless you plan on adding an entire new set of weapons to fit this feature, it wouldn't make that much of an affect (unless I totally missed a vital part of this conversation).

[Leberkass]

So me and Majosh just had a conversation about giving swords their personal touch, like the AGS just got with the blunt damage, but I got something in mind for the other swords too.(Commando Swords only though)

Durendal/Legacy
Add Armor penetration to it while stabing, because they have got a sharp tip. This would only make sense as a big, curved tip like the AGS can do blunt damage and has the chance to know someone down(iirc). So a sharp thin tip goes easier through an armor or am I wrong there, because what I have learned from school and some books this is what it used to be back in the Middle Age.

VGS
Add Armor penetration to it while swinging, because it has jags and they can go through an armor, because they are sharp aswell or should be haha.
Should be less than for Durendal and Legacy though.

Dwarf Axe
This would need an overhaul but madjosh had an idea

These were just some ideas, but I am not sure what you think about this.

[Winter]

So me and Majosh just had a conversation about giving swords their personal touch, like the AGS just got with the blunt damage, but I got something in mind for the other swords too.(Commando Swords only though)

Durendal/Legacy
Add Armor penetration to it while stabing, because they have got a sharp tip. This would only make sense as a big, curved tip like the AGS can do blunt damage and has the chance to know someone down(iirc). So a sharp thin tip goes easier through an armor or am I wrong there, because what I have learned from school and some books this is what it used to be back in the Middle Age.

VGS
Add Armor penetration to it while swinging, because it has jags and they can go through an armor, because they are sharp aswell or should be haha.
Should be less than for Durendal and Legacy though.

Dwarf Axe
This would need an overhaul but madjosh had an idea

These were just some ideas, but I am not sure what you think about this.

To the first part about the sharper tips going through armor, this is only really true against cloth/leather based armors, as anythign stiffer would be more likely to bend or break your tip.  When going against quality chain or plate one would be more likely to use halbschwert to have better accuracy with the point to go for joints and other weak points and be able to use the quillions and pommel for bludgeoning.  Sadly, halbschwert is definitely not something Warband will be letting is get away with.  Still, those two swords do already have insanely high pierce damage due to exactly what you are talking about.

The idea for the VGS is interesting and similar things have been talked about.  I would have to play around with it and see what different armor penetrating affects could be added.

Dwarf Axe has bonus against shields.  That is already pretty unique for 2h legendary items.

In response to all of these ideas, though, it seems that it would make 2h legendary items in general a bit powerful without having similar unique affects added to legendary items used by other classes.  The reason the AGS received what it did was to see if blunt-tip swords could have a place in the game in general, and to add swords with a similar idea to crafting tiers.

[Madjosh]

Not really my idea, however, in the case of the dwarf axe (and any other axes i might be forgetting). I believe giving them the pierce damage type would be an interesting and logical change.

Not sure how many of you have tried out Taleworlds newest DLC Viking Conquest, but in this instalment, they made a move to change all axe type weaponry to the pierce damage type. Just because a weapon isn't pointy doesn't mean it can't pierce through armour. There's a reason you hack down trees with an axe and not a sword. Axes, as far as the real world counterparts go, rely on small area impact damage, made deadly by the one sided weight of the axe which harnesses and focusses the entire weight and force of the weapon onto a small area for tremendous damage (allowing you to pierce through things swords and other cutty things can't). This means you can't cleave through 5 heads in one swing but you can certainly put some serious pain on one head at a time. To give axes the same old cut damage that you get with your stock standard swords daggers doesn't do justice to its intended use.

I dunno, do what you like, i just think the dwarf axe is trying to compete with the top end swords and i think it should be in a bracket of its own.

[Ribbed]

Not really my idea, however, in the case of the dwarf axe (and any other axes i might be forgetting). I believe giving them the pierce damage type would be an interesting and logical change.

Not sure how many of you have tried out Taleworlds newest DLC Viking Conquest, but in this instalment, they made a move to change all axe type weaponry to the pierce damage type. Just because a weapon isn't pointy doesn't mean it can't pierce through armour. There's a reason you hack down trees with an axe and not a sword. Axes, as far as the real world counterparts go, rely on small area impact damage, made deadly by the one sided weight of the axe which harnesses and focusses the entire weight and force of the weapon onto a small area for tremendous damage (allowing you to pierce through things swords and other cutty things can't). This means you can't cleave through 5 heads in one swing but you can certainly put some serious pain on one head at a time. To give axes the same old cut damage that you get with your stock standard swords daggers doesn't do justice to its intended use.

I dunno, do what you like, i just think the dwarf axe is trying to compete with the top end swords and i think it should be in a bracket of its own.

Well pierce damage would make it a little op like mangler, maybe just give it a disarm effect?

[DR.]

Can you give it a chance to do crush thru ? smaller chance than a hammer

Like a Morningstar with out the blunt

[Winter]

Just because a weapon isn't pointy doesn't mean it can't pierce through armour. There's a reason you hack down trees with an axe and not a sword. Axes, as far as the real world counterparts go, rely on small area impact damage, made deadly by the one sided weight of the axe which harnesses and focusses the entire weight and force of the weapon onto a small area for tremendous damage (allowing you to pierce through things swords and other cutty things can't). This means you can't cleave through 5 heads in one swing but you can certainly put some serious pain on one head at a time. To give axes the same old cut damage that you get with your stock standard swords daggers doesn't do justice to its intended use.

I don't feel like this would really manifest itself through "piercing" the armor, though.  Quality axes wouldn't be piercing metal armor as much as doing blunt trauma damage and cracking/crushing through it, which is the same as what swords would be doing, although with much more efficiency because of the mechanics you described.  Pierce, in my mind, describes things with pointy ends that truly pierce through things, like spears or the points on the Mangler.  For axes, it almost sounds like it should be doing high blunt damage on metal armored enemies and continue doing cut damage on leather/cloth armored enemies, although for Warband this is not possible.

The damage system I would really like to follow is having each weapon and armor have a mixture of types (cut/pierce/blunt, leather/chain/plate) to make it a bit more realistic, as even swords of varying sizes would have massively varying degrees of blunt force trauma on different types of armor.  Ah well, maybe for a future installment of Warband, but I digress.

For the Dwarf Axe now, I don't see it gaining pierce or blunt damage.  It is possible to give axes a certain degree of extra armor penetration, though, as you have described.  It will still be called cut damage, but underneath it will denote that it has extra armor penetration.  This will require further testing and feedback.  This would, of course, follow over to other axe-type two handed weapons and possible some polearms, depending on the polearm type.

[Elmo]

Dwarf axe with a disarm chance sounds awesome XD would make it very unique indeed