Warden Vs Master peltast

[Winter]

The not piercing shields isn't that big a deal on a warden tbh, get withing 10 feet, take one step with bow drawn, they drop shield, headshot. Dead nord. Skilled archers that kite know this already. 
Also, with warden you get 2x the ammo a pikeman does, so there's that. They each have their pro's and cons tbh. I always thought of archer as a skill class with making the nords drop shields and pikeman as a spear chucker if I wanna be lazy for the night  .

This was also how I kited.

[Sargent Q]

Wardens compared to MP have

Less Damage
Same Speed (82)
More weight
Less Athletics
Less armor value
Less melee ability (4 compared to 7 power strike)
Can't jump throw
Can't shoot while running (uesful for pikeman to jiggle peak throw to maintain a constant stream of throwables without delay)
Cant pen shields
Can't heal fast(healing/toming takes throwing skill)

At least 1-2 of these values should be increased for the ranged class and the 100% ranged Hero
Warden is kinda dissapointing, needs more of a class identity

Damage: Winter has already pointed out that the less damage on warden is made up for by a much higher rate of getting headshots. I'm going to add to that, that my experience supports this.

Speed: Again Winter has answered this. I don't have anything at all to add

Weight/Speed: Weight makes a enormous difference in speed. I just ran a test with baron with him on archer and me on pikeman. He has Tracker hood, Levitation's guard, Royal Sniper guantlets, No boots, Stag bow, Backs arrows, and a illustrious. Totaling a weight of 16.3 weight. I had Barbutte, Tiger scale, Light plated guantlets, No boots, and 3 stacks of ruptures. Totaling a weight of 21. He won. we started at thhe same time and he got the lead at once. Using this class "That is slower than Master Peltest." Though i will say for techincaity;s sake taht he was on sentinel. the difference in speed between them and a warden using a EK is nothing.

Master peltest Athletics are higher than Warden, but that is because they need to be. Because the weight difference makes a huge impact on the actual in game speed.

Everything else listed. Pikemen are Skirmishers, Archers are Snipers. There is a MASSIVE difference in where they fight. Archers are designed to fight behind something. Skirmishers are designed to be in front and weaken the enemy troops. Archers would be almost useless in the role Skirms have. Skirms would be useless in the role archers have.

Even this game has them balanced to those roles. Skirmishers are designed to either be out in front and fall back into the cades or be at the cades the whole time. Archers are designed to be back behind the cades peeking and giving long range support. As a initial engagement troop, Skrims need to be able to weaken the enemy. Such a thing the bonus to shields gives.

Skrimishers historically probably did not have as high armor as we have it in this game. Reason being we need to give insentive to take the class. If skirms had no armor would you play it? and if so, would you just sit back in base throwing at the shield wall and refusing to do anything that might get you hit in any way?

Firing while moving is actually a warband feature i believe, and is there to simulate that you don't need to stop moving to be able to throw a spear or axe. You do have to in order to shot a bow really. Same thing with throwing.

And does healing really matter at all? does it matter one bit if MP drop a meed box half a second faster than anyone else?

Bottom line. Warden does have a class identity. It may not be what you want it to be. But that is not going to change.

[Stillicho]

The not piercing shields isn't that big a deal on a warden tbh, get withing 10 feet, take one step with bow drawn, they drop shield, headshot. Dead nord. Skilled archers that kite know this already. 
Also, with warden you get 2x the ammo a pikeman does, so there's that. They each have their pro's and cons tbh. I always thought of archer as a skill class with making the nords drop shields and pikeman as a spear chucker if I wanna be lazy for the night  .

This was also how I kited.

Yeah I forget who showed me that, I dunno. Moot point on the shield thing thing though. The weight thing pointed out especially changes adding up ALL the stacks carried by a pikeman though. Thanks for testing out Q.

[DR.]

Daggers on mp or even pike makes warden useless. - Change them to more damage and less speed if need be or more damage and less accuracy.

I found pike to always be easier to get in the top kills in a run, however, I think it's because of the speed and the less p of bows you end up spreading the damage to more bots ending with fewer kills. This can change with practice by finding the bot you want to shoot at far away and keep aiming for him... etc.

The only change I see you doing is making all Bows more damage and not as fast or make them faster and less damage. Both I don't like as one makes them even closer to pike and the other will fuck them on hard/rag.

The only change I see going over ok ish if you make arrows pierce all shields again. - Could just do that with Zephyr and make them less p than black.


I don't think Mp Vs Warden is a problem well a major problem but it true for the not experienced players Pike will be always better as it has more + over Sniper.

[Narvad]

Might be that not the warden is weak, but MP is too strong.

Let's see what we have with daggers:

Master Peltast items:

Spoiler

Barbutte:                    2 Weight
Tiger Scale:                 3 weight
Light Plated Gauntlets: 1 weight
Lionhide boots:           1 weight

Volcanic Daggers: 60p, 100 speed, 1 weight x2(50 ammo)
Any good polearm: 2.5 weight

11.5 Weight total(Which will be increased to 12.5 when you will pick up 3rd stack of daggers in 4th equipment slot. Same as warden will get 23 weight(with hallogis).

Besides that:

Daggers are faster than bow + arrows.

Spoiler

Due to my tests in native:

• War Bow 85 speed rating
  300 Archery 73 arrows in 113 seconds(~0.646 shoots per second)
  
  
• Volcanic Daggers 100 speed rating
  300 Throwing 25 Volcanic's in 34 seconds(~0.735 throws per second)
  

Daggers are doing more damage at moderate distance.

Spoiler

Same 70% damage bonus from Power Draw/Throw, but +25 more proficiency(Warden-MP Difference), which can be translated into +3.75% increase of damage(60*0.0375=2.25 damage)before other modifiers. Notice that most modifiers stacking multiplicatively, which means that damage difference further will only increase.

Daggers doing bonus damage to shields.

Spoiler

Which allows to break shield and kill the bot in the same manner as with rupturers/twigs, with the difference that you'll not stagger bot in the process.

What left for Archer-Warden is to sit behind barricades and try to snipe as many nord archers as you can, to not fall far behind on the "kill charts".

[Stillicho]

Might be that not the warden is weak, but MP is too strong.

Let's see what we have with daggers:

Master Peltast items:

Spoiler

Barbutte:                    2 Weight
Tiger Scale:                 3 weight
Light Plated Gauntlets: 1 weight
Lionhide boots:           1 weight

Volcanic Daggers: 60p, 100 speed, 1 weight x2(50 ammo)
Any good polearm: 2.5 weight

11.5 Weight total(Which will be increased to 12.5 when you will pick up 3rd stack of daggers in 4th equipment slot. Same as warden will get 23 weight(with hallogis).

Besides that:

Daggers are faster than bow + arrows.

Spoiler

Due to my tests in native:

• War Bow 85 speed rating
  300 Archery 73 arrows in 113 seconds(~0.646 shoots per second)
  
  
• Volcanic Daggers 100 speed rating
  300 Throwing 25 Volcanic's in 34 seconds(~0.735 throws per second)
  

Daggers are doing more damage at moderate distance.

Spoiler

Same 70% damage bonus from Power Draw/Throw, but +25 more proficiency(Warden-MP Difference), which can be translated into +3.75% increase of damage(60*0.0375=2.25 damage)before other modifiers. Notice that most modifiers stacking multiplicatively, which means that damage difference further will only increase.

Daggers doing bonus damage to shields.

Spoiler

Which allows to break shield and kill the bot in the same manner as with rupturers/twigs, with the difference that you'll not stagger bot in the process.

What left for Archer-Warden is to sit behind barricades and try to snipe as many nord archers as you can, to not fall far behind on the "kill charts".

You just compared Volcanic Daggers, a top tier legendary, to a War Bow, a marketplace bow. Why would I even look bother looking at this? It's like comparing a Ferrari to a Honda Civic...

Wouldn't you compare the Typhoon or w/e the fast one is plus Zephyr arrows vs. Volcanic if your doing fast vs. fast for dps comparison?

[DR.]

Might be that not the warden is weak, but MP is too strong.

Let's see what we have with daggers:

Master Peltast items:

Spoiler

Barbutte:                    2 Weight
Tiger Scale:                 3 weight
Light Plated Gauntlets: 1 weight
Lionhide boots:           1 weight

Volcanic Daggers: 60p, 100 speed, 1 weight x2(50 ammo)
Any good polearm: 2.5 weight

11.5 Weight total(Which will be increased to 12.5 when you will pick up 3rd stack of daggers in 4th equipment slot. Same as warden will get 23 weight(with hallogis).

Besides that:

Daggers are faster than bow + arrows.

Spoiler

Due to my tests in native:

• War Bow 85 speed rating
  300 Archery 73 arrows in 113 seconds(~0.646 shoots per second)
  
  
• Volcanic Daggers 100 speed rating
  300 Throwing 25 Volcanic's in 34 seconds(~0.735 throws per second)
  

Daggers are doing more damage at moderate distance.

Spoiler

Same 70% damage bonus from Power Draw/Throw, but +25 more proficiency(Warden-MP Difference), which can be translated into +3.75% increase of damage(60*0.0375=2.25 damage)before other modifiers. Notice that most modifiers stacking multiplicatively, which means that damage difference further will only increase.

Daggers doing bonus damage to shields.

Spoiler

Which allows to break shield and kill the bot in the same manner as with rupturers/twigs, with the difference that you'll not stagger bot in the process.

What left for Archer-Warden is to sit behind barricades and try to snipe as many nord archers as you can, to not fall far behind on the "kill charts".

You just compared Volcanic Daggers, a top tier legendary, to a War Bow, a marketplace bow. Why would I even look bother looking at this? It's like comparing a Ferrari to a Honda Civic...

Wouldn't you compare the Typhoon or w/e the fast one is plus Zephyr arrows vs. Volcanic if your doing fast vs. fast for dps comparison?

Nop Stag/Ullrs and Black Arrows as of the all hero's part of it. Either way, my point stands daggers need a change.

[Narvad]

You just compared Volcanic Daggers, a top tier legendary, to a War Bow, a marketplace bow. Why would I even look bother looking at this? It's like comparing a Ferrari to a Honda Civic...

Wouldn't you compare the Typhoon or w/e the fast one is plus Zephyr arrows vs. Volcanic if your doing fast vs. fast for dps comparison?

The thing is... i didn't.

The one and only thing that there from War Bow is 85 bow attack speed rating, which is highlighted, because it different and it's even more than Typhoon has(it means that Typhon has even less "shoot per second" stat).

Fun thing that 85 speed rating is also the average between Typhoon and Tempest. So it would be more fair to compare 58p damage as bow + arrows to Volcanic's 60p(in the case of having already tested bow with 85 spd rating). But seems like it's already hard to understand, so i wouldn't bother.

[Coconut]

volcanic are fine how they are, you cant block with them, the cant go through shields and they fall in the air really hard. Would be nice if there was a master peltast variant of it... Maybe called something like Vulcanic daggers ;p... anyways getting pretty offtopic.

[DR.]

volcanic are fine how they are, you cant block with them, the cant go through shields and they fall in the air really hard. Would be nice if there was a master peltast variant of it... Maybe called something like Vulcanic daggers ;p... anyways getting pretty offtopic.

From some one that started the topic, I would think you can see that "can't go through shields" "you can't block with them" is the same as bows and arrows? not other pike stuff?

If you wanted Warden/Sniper to get a buff from topics like this you must think the opposite might happen and that's pikeman getting the change... You must agree that daggers fill the role of a sniper with out being a sniper...

Maybe you just don't want the v-daggers you have to get changed? Would you feel the same if you did not have them?


This is from someone that's had v-daggers for just about the longest time. Change it or change all the bows or something else... The Daggers are the only thing I see being the problem even if there is one.