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the problem of hardmode is that the nerfs hit players very hard in hardcore especially players lvl 32-40. i agree that teamwork is needed in hardcore but there is not many ways to do it well (unless 2-3 tactics are done at the same time) i rather think there most be rather maps that are designed for hardcore only or a lower number of enemy's increase when a player joins. and what about the guys that say it to easy well wont it be harder if you reach a higher wave?
the disadvantage of long lines is that people get lost in the text
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Looking at the play-style of those on EU servers, their success does not come from only relying on massive shield walls. From what I've seen, their willingness to listen and cooperate far surpass that of people on NA servers (though this was from one sample group). But when I hear that people reach wave 13 or higher, I can believe it, because they listen to others and communicate as a team (e.g. kiting an enemy at the end of the wave so that everyone can refill their ammo/supplies, and having a system of typing r to show they are ready for the next wave).
Practically speaking, I do not believe the massive shield walls are truly necessary for groups of foot soldiers on Swadian Town. People just need to be more willing to hold up a shield and stand in a line. What the deployables do is form an actual physical barrier, but if people learned not to stand in bad positions, you could have the same effect with only 4-6 shields.
P.S. While I'm talking about bad positions, people all too often just stand in the open when a mass of cavalry spawns and proceed to get flattened. Please listen when I tell you to get near a wall or behind some deployable shields.
ba da bing ba da BAN! -Hypernoma
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(28-01-2012, 10:52 PM)Hypernoma link Wrote: My "learn to feint" comment is directed at people that believe they need shields to survive. There are a host of players that manage to play without resorting to shield spam. Beyond that, if you actually waited a tiny bit longer to see the full extent of the changes being rolled out before resorting to swearing at players then you might find that it is not all doom and gloom 
It looks like you're privy to some information and I'm glad to here that changes are forthcoming. But can you please share some of these team tactics you keep talking about, instead of telling us to "learn to feint"? From my admittedly limited experience with other players in hard mode, it's nigh impossible to get past the first three or four waves without resorting to shields or some kind of turtleing. I'm not level 52, I just hit commando, and I can only take a few hits from early mobs. But I'm not a half-bad player, and I'm obviously open to any team-oriented methods of working through hard mode. "Learning to feint" will only help us so far, though, and doesn't speak to any of these team-based tactics you've mentioned.
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A tactic I've seen working successfully is having cavalry kiting/killing the enemy group while archers and infantry lure parts of the group away one by one. Also, cavalry aggros the melee enemies while infantry/archers take down enemy rangers so that the cavalry remains alive. Near the end of every wave, they leave 1 enemy left by kiting and running around, and allow everyone to heal. When you are ready for the next wave, enter r and then they will kill last guy. Repeat for next waves. Of course, it would be more effective having two cavalry kiting as it does not put the burden of aggro on a single player. Infantry players must not get too close to the mob. Lure them away one at a time.
It's a pretty effective strategy I saw on EU -- the cavalry players were the ones doing most of the killing, actually. They were fully geared knights with thunder lances.
ba da bing ba da BAN! -Hypernoma
(29-01-2012, 12:19 AM)royalewithcheese link Wrote: It looks like you're privy to some information and I'm glad to here that changes are forthcoming. But can you please share some of these team tactics you keep talking about, instead of telling us to "learn to feint"? From my admittedly limited experience with other players in hard mode, it's nigh impossible to get past the first three or four waves without resorting to shields or some kind of turtleing. I'm not level 52, I just hit commando, and I can only take a few hits from early mobs. But I'm not a half-bad player, and I'm obviously open to any team-oriented methods of working through hard mode. "Learning to feint" will only help us so far, though, and doesn't speak to any of these team-based tactics you've mentioned.
We usually don't resort much to shield walls (deployable shields or huscarl turtles) in a few maps and we usually go 6-7 and further in Town (due to valkyries/other ranged willing to ranged us from the hill instead of just rushing in). We usually play 2 Snipers with sergeants/commandos and instead of going for the easy kills, we always support the melee fights (stunning Tyr from behind with arrows helps a lot melee players to kill him) and when we're "okay" with the melee, we pick on Rangers who couldn't shoot us before to finish the round. Works great in village / beach / outskirts.
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The only real negative feed back I can give on some of the bots, like I said is them being able to strike past my shield/block and taking a single hit to die. I forget the fellas names its past the Valks but these bots are retarded buff, they make me as a commando look like small talk. The way to beat them is to be masterful and not let them strike - but a reduction in number would make things a bit more fair... I've made it to or past wave 13 doing the shield bid with the EU servers and I've made it to 7 or so on the US with using guerrilla tactics/kiting/ambushing from all angles.
As not many people have reached the later waves its hard for me to explain to the devs and have my opinion further reviewed. But after the Valks some of these waves get a big nuts (The speed of the Vet Zerks is also a big... uh... bad...?) Not to say I can't kill'em but you sure as hell ain't getting away... hah.
Only as good as the man to your left and right. See your enemies driven before you!
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(29-01-2012, 12:51 AM)_Sphinx_ link Wrote: [quote author=royalewithcheese link=topic=1145.msg9768#msg9768 date=1327796369]
It looks like you're privy to some information and I'm glad to here that changes are forthcoming. But can you please share some of these team tactics you keep talking about, instead of telling us to "learn to feint"? From my admittedly limited experience with other players in hard mode, it's nigh impossible to get past the first three or four waves without resorting to shields or some kind of turtleing. I'm not level 52, I just hit commando, and I can only take a few hits from early mobs. But I'm not a half-bad player, and I'm obviously open to any team-oriented methods of working through hard mode. "Learning to feint" will only help us so far, though, and doesn't speak to any of these team-based tactics you've mentioned.
We usually don't resort much to shield walls (deployable shields or huscarl turtles) in a few maps and we usually go 6-7 and further in Town (due to valkyries/other ranged willing to ranged us from the hill instead of just rushing in). We usually play 2 Snipers with sergeants/commandos and instead of going for the easy kills, we always support the melee fights (stunning Tyr from behind with arrows helps a lot melee players to kill him) and when we're "okay" with the melee, we pick on Rangers who couldn't shoot us before to finish the round. Works great in village / beach / outskirts.
[/quote]
Interesting. Hopefully I get a chance to role with you guys on maps that aren't Swadian Town or Village. In my experience leaving cover to engage enemies in melee (like you mention) is just a death sentence from rangers and the like.
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(29-01-2012, 01:43 AM)FinKone link Wrote: The only real negative feed back I can give on some of the bots, like I said is them being able to strike past my shield/block and taking a single hit to die. I forget the fellas names its past the Valks but these bots are retarded buff, they make me as a commando look like small talk. The way to beat them is to be masterful and not let them strike - but a reduction in number would make things a bit more fair... I've made it to or past wave 13 doing the shield bid with the EU servers and I've made it to 7 or so on the US with using guerrilla tactics/kiting/ambushing from all angles.
As not many people have reached the later waves its hard for me to explain to the devs and have my opinion further reviewed. But after the Valks some of these waves get a big nuts (The speed of the Vet Zerks is also a big... uh... bad...?) Not to say I can't kill'em but you sure as hell ain't getting away... hah.
You're talking about Jotnes I guess? Yeah they're tough... Although I guess getting to these much much later waves isn't really intended to be happening until now, not sure if the Devs realised we'd survive until then 
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Yeah - Jotnes - spawn of Loki.
Only as good as the man to your left and right. See your enemies driven before you!
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(29-01-2012, 02:37 AM)Chibbi link Wrote: You're talking about Jotnes I guess? Yeah they're tough... Although I guess getting to these much much later waves isn't really intended to be happening until now, not sure if the Devs realised we'd survive until then
Pretty much this. The rebalance that happened last patch for Hardmode was just for the earlier waves, we never expected you guys to reach this far this quickly. This is of course partly due to Tricksters and Battle Priests being temporarily removed and bosses losing their abilities, which I assure you will be back.
However next patch will also tone down the regular mobs in Hardmode. I know it's hard, but you just have to bear with us until we find the sweet spot for it.
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