Rise from the Ashes

[Malong]

I'm playing bingo is it working? 

Yes. [what? haha]
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At this point, I'm having too much fun [in seeing you trying to talk to me]
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Pic
delivery
[inside joke]
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Best thing i've is ever seen on this thread. You did not make my day you made my week :')
[inside joke]

Spoiler

I'm just going to get this out of the way:

[Y]ou aren't some master debater.  You are the only one that thinks that, and I'm just telling you because I think someone has to.

Do you think changing the parameters by which quest credit is given would suddenly incentivize more people to play differently? This hasn't been established.

Want to see if you would find out for yourself but guess not.

I've never said more I've said incentivize people. Used Ctrl + F if you need to.

Incentivize people that go after quests already to play differently knowing the outcome of the game will have little no effect. 

In saying this they may not do it all the time but what's stopping them from turning from helping the team on normal to let's try to get max damage here. 

Nothing is stopping him here so yes people will do it.

I never claimed that is what you typed. You missed the point: if a significant part of the population does not modify their behavior to complete this quest more quickly, why would they if the quest is changed to damage?

So "what's stopping them from turning from helping the team on normal to let's try to get max [kills] here?"

"kill other bots too"  
You have done Ashes so I will detect this to you. 
When you needed a bot more than any others at (x) wave and you see 5 of them and 7 other bots who do you aim for? 

(A) Did you aim to kill them as fast as you could and "kill stealing" other peoples maybe?
or
(B) Did you try to hit everyone knowing at the time you needed the kill, not the damage?

(A) would be a faster way to do the quest atm. 
(B) would be a faster way to do the quest if it was for damage.

Out of (A) and (B) who helped the team more?

Thanks for detecting this to me (whatever that means). You pose a bad scenario, as when there are 12 bots left, you're just cleaning up the wave. But when there are more bots than that, I always prioritized not dying and not wiping over any kills. There's no point to putting personal quest progress above those. So I never picked (A) nor (B), so the follow-up question is irrelevant.

"other bots will get incidentally killed." 

Sure if you're using something with no accuracy or bad luck or You are shit.

For someone that's done the quest yourself or the people that are atm over a good amount of this quest already will have good aim. Its not a hard game at all i play on avg with 200-300 ping yet most of the time i hit my target with a bow/xbow/daggers. We are playing against bots here...

Sure i may miss 1 out 5 shots or even less in some cases but that effect is negligible. Considering crosshair placement and other factors like most of the time bots of the same kind are close by each other I see this point as null in void.

And many bots get incidentally killed by teammates...

The first part is wrong. Being in a position where you have to play a difficulty just to get kills for one bot of a run means your time spent on the other waves is not going towards your quest progress. It is more efficient to get progress on the different bots of a wave evenly such that you don't have to play a difficulty mode just to have one bot of one wave complete.

"You want to complete each bot in a difficulty in as close a time interval as possible" 
I agree that would be the fastest but how the hell would this happen?

So even tho some bots are less common on waves and knowing some bots have more waves to their name...

By attacking the ones you need the most in a wave no quest goal falls behind the others as much as it does... What is the point of being done with Siege Masters if you still need 100+ Einherjar Pikemen after that?

So even tho some bots are less common on waves and knowing some bots have more waves to their name...

On wave 13 rag we have  
New This wave
Einherjar Pikeman
Nord Chosen Champion
Siege Master

It's highly likely one of the 3 here was the last you needed for rag. Hence even if that wasn't what you needed you did have in mind want you needed the most at that point in time.

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This would be the fastest way to do the quest. Prioritize the bot that's rarest and hardest to get to over ones that are plentiful on this wave and early. 

Why hit kill an Einherjar Ranger or Einherjar Sniper or Chosen Valkyrie or Einherjar when i can try to hit every Siege Master for max damage. It and the other 2 are the hardest bot to get for the quest considering wave 14 only has 2 options and the bots are plentiful. It's not like most people can kite or even start a run that makes it to wave 13 anyway.

My last bot on Ragnarok was Follower of Hati or Skoll, Forward's was Nord Chosen Champion, Falankos's was Fire Jotne. 1/3 did not turn out to be "highly likely." And for Falankos, that last Ragnarok bot wave 14 which "only has 2 options and the bots are plentiful" and not 13.

The difference is if its damage you are incentivised to go for the kill [help the team].

Assist make it the aim is to kill the bots as fast as you can still but you are still rewarded if you helped. 

And why not just reward people based on their direct contribution? Why do you want 60% contribution to get someone 50% credit?

Atm im over 80% on my mara if it was damage based from the start at what point would i ever catch up.

I used my self as an example as im someone that has not cared much but i still do a bit.

May take a year or more but I'm in no rush as the 5m reward is not even worth me only playing mara for that long without breaks. Getting the 5m tomorrow even or in an years time has almost no effect on my value or "happiness". I could not care less if the reward was less or more. 

For the amount of gold, I have spent this year and last the lowest I hit was 3m.  

Ashes is a mountain and unlike the people that have done it im taking breaks playing other heroes. I will do it one day but the view at the top is not worth rushing things. 

Note even if it was 10m i would still be saying the same thing. I plan to do it but it's not a goal of mine atm.

You don't care about finishing it, but you care about "the point at which [you would] catch up?" Stop lying!

And yet in your suggestion, the 55% gets no assist because it's less than 60% necessary to count as an assist, and it's not the last hit, so it doesn't award the kill either.

As for the fact that you don't want to kill the bot: Do you think changing the parameters by which quest credit is given would suddenly incentivize more people to play differently? 

Yes

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This hasn't been established. 

The people that have already priorities getting some bots over others to do the quest quicker i feel will do this. Maybe not all the time but that group of people would do it.

For how much people idk we are metaphorical speaking here so i can't give numbers. like you can't give numbers to [add example here] 

Spoiler

This discussion has literally been about your lack of proof and you go on with "[I] feel will do this." If people are already taking the most efficient route, then nothing changes. If people aren't, then the scenario you fear won't happen. There is no precedent for people changing their behavior because if they cared about the quest, they would take the most efficient path already.

Other reasons: players don't know bots' remaining health, there are many times when a damaged bot will get hit anyway, and there are many times when damaged bots hinder you from moving on and have to be killed before aiming for another bot.

Read plz

how can one be sure about the health of a bot?

Seeing the ammo in the bot (throwing weapons/bolts/arrows)

I never have blood on but can that do it?

just remember the location of the bot and hit a different one.

Thats 2/3 ways to do it.


If your not sure that just extends the time of you looking for a clean bot.

It's not hard at all to aim at a bot at the back that's not been hit yet. Keeping track of all the ranged is harder but it can be done. How do you think people like me get 350 kills "kill stealing"

If i can do it with ping someone with more skill than me and has normal ping could destroy this quest for others. 

So you bring up healing, but ignore its factor in a bot's remaining health. And then you ignore "there are many times when a damaged bot will get hit anyway, and there are many times when damaged bots hinder you from moving on and have to be killed before aiming for another bot." Good job!

Why would you not just use items that actually exist in the game? As I've completed the quest using both Typhoon and Tempest, I can tell you it's negligible. Players were hitting bots regardless, not actively aiming to get the last hit. [=

Hmm, read [something about crossbows] I used Dead Shot my upgraded eagle as an example.  

I made the example with bows as the only parameter would be speed and damage.

Why not typhoon and tempest well like you said negligible other than flight speed. The difference in stats is so small i would be better of trying compare daggers with twigs but dagger as eh so diffent and a nerf...

That was a reply to the part about bows. The choice between which bows to use are never between "100 speed" and "80 speed," it would be between something like Tempest and Typhoon. And yes, you put the idea forward, you have to prove it.

I needed to make 2 things more different that what we have.

(A) I would believe for hitting faster has a higher chance of being the killing blow. Better at killing bots
(B) I would believe for having more damage would still do more damage to the bot over some amount of time but is less likely to be the final hit. Better at getting the assists.

All Snipers stuff is more of an (A) thats my problem here it's so close in stats to tempest both would be the group. 

Dead shot and Alia are too different to compare. If Alia is (A) Dead Shot is (C.) 

(C.) Useless on most bots as having the speed reduction for getting lots of damage is more than enough to kill most things even in rag. Its only good on a small number of bots but when its time it the bots get rekt.

"What you believe" is not actual proof. Do the real math with item stats in the game to show the break points between speed and damage and when each is beneficial for each mode/bot.

Anyway, you generally need to simultaneously tome while keeping the boss staggered. It's better to have some people keep attacking, while others tome safely, rather than everyone dropping what they're doing to tome while the boss goes and potentially kills more people.

In what cases tho?

If the boss is in range... Odin and King sometimes are. Nop.

If the boss is behind a good amount of cades. Nop.

When he's cornered. Yes but that does not mean you go full out and even then... Coming from someone that shields a bit more than you atm heals is more important than dps in this case. By a good amount.   

If the boss is running at you can kite. If your xbow or inf that's a bit different but in that case why are you so close to him? 


Also, you can kite by using race lines to get away from king and prince on any hero on lots map. A. I can't take corners like we can. 

Also Also Leg should either be in ranged or helping shield and the other 3 heroes should all be helping shielding. 

also also also what's stopping there being a warning when the boss is low. 

also also also also why reward people for being a dick.

How would you know what's best and/or realistic? When you play, only "1 out of 10 rag runs even make it [to] wave 13." Zing!

And what the hell are you even talking about? It's easiest to stagger when bosses are stationary and throwing, rather than chasing after people. About the health announcement, given that development hid the boss health values to the point that health bar scripts don't work, I would imagine that's not going to happen. if there was a global announcement about the boss being low health, the same people that don't care about dead teammates still would not stop or might even be encouraged to keep attacking the boss for kill quests. That would also lead to scenarios where people get rewarded "for being [dicks]."

hypothetical issue that has been solved a long time ago.

Just an example that you gave me of ideas that don't get added as the game is not ready or its not needed atm. I could of suggested having an open inventory system. That's an idea we all want yet how long as it been? R.i.p

On that point.

I've suggested moving heroes/ids to items almost so you 1 more slot above "Weapon 1" for Heroes/ids. Updating gear updates stats as well.

Doing this would also mean you could change class without needing to quit and come back.

That has not been added as that's a mess to code.

Or they don't want to reward healing in that way. And if you're implying changing credit to be based on damage would be difficult, here:

Code:

damageCredit = (damageDealt < remainingHits) ? damageDealt : remainingHits

I personally don't see even half of the idea's i put up going through.

Is this another one of those "I feel" situations? I looked quickly at the feature request sub-forum for your threads and it's far less than half. I [don't really] wonder why.

As said before i made all the heroes as no quest was given to me. Unlocking all things in lots of game is an achievement. Yes, 2-5 would all you need to hit max benefit but me having 12 at the time was still better than 1. from there factors. 

[incentives to make all heroes]

So you agree that there's no need to compensate you for something you're already felt compelled to do due to all those reasons. Also strange that in your suggestion for a quest to create all the heroes, that you would forgo any personal reward. This would go a long way in showing that you care about the principle more than try to get an extra reward. Would you be willing to do that?

"supposed to be a graph" 

Not even

It's all guesswork all that pic is for it to show the idea and visualise it.  

It only made sense in your mind...

Legacy of a hero can be done in easily less than a week if you try [best was 3 days]. I'll call it 2 weeks just because I'll put it at it weakest for a player like myself. 

Now compare that to other quests after that. I'll let you make this graph as you seem nice and eager.

Compare all quests once you hit lvl 52 with the rewards vs how long they would ruffly take. Also, highlight quests that can only be done more than once. 
Also maybe level each quest for how hard it would be for example. Do it how you want but i think the harder the quest the better the reward. No idea where cav quests would go. Guess we only have 2 of them ahaha...
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I want you to do this to show how many outliers we have atm in quests and the rewards they give.

Neither you nor I can plot this, we don't have access to this data. For analysis on this, you would need publicly-available data that tracks when a quest gets accepted and how long it takes to complete. Maybe devs have access to this; I recall someone telling Nka the number of times he completed Legacy of a Hero back when it was repeatable. But even then there's no guarantee that the data available tracks time stamps of accepting the quest and finishing it.

I think players would rather getting more value out the quests they do.

Yes, i don't think it should be linear but it's already not linear... Rise from the Ashes was made as a joke but its got to the point were the joke happened and people have done it. Rise from the Ashes is 10x the reward of Legacy of a Hero but Legacy of a hero can be done in 3 days or less at best. 

In the time you were doing this you made a lot more gold by turning Xp into gold... 5m for a quest like this is arguably shit. I can make 5m+ easy in 1 trade that takes place over less than a day. If your good at trading or dont have the value to do big trades you can get 5m by hard grinding for about 5 or so weeks.

Overall I think Legacy of a hero being 500k is fine its the others that need changing but i would be fine if it got a nerf and other quests that take longer got a buff. Either way, it's not linear at all atm. 

Cool:

But that decision is mutually exclusive of tuning a different feature.

So you don't play the most efficient way to complete quests now, but you suddenly would if it was changed to damage? What is to stop you from playing to get the quests done now and "making runs take longer" or whatever your fear was?

I'm speaking hypothetically for someone that does atm. I did care about legacy of a hero as it was doable in a small time frame.

I guess if you wanted it on this quest you wanted it on all. 

[Q voice] What?