(13-03-2020, 04:10 PM)Malong Wrote: The point wasn't where the search result sits in the list, and obviously it would have the text "gold sink" in it if it returned in a text search. But you claim you suggested gold sinks (which multiple players, admins, and devs have brought up at least about three years prior), but instead it's as a side effect of another rejected change. It's like you were "putting a light on" a topic that was already quite well lit.
I'm slowly getting tired of saying the same stuff. I never claimed I was the 1st to come up with the idea of we need a big gold sink. You could have a few threads before me but I could not care less when It's not my point and never has been my point.
If I had to play this game..., go show me a thread that's as close as that is to upgrades that reference one of the positives as a gold sink. Could be 1 or 2 or 500 out there sure but I could not care less when It's never has been my point.
Looking at it again I didn't notice that Terath did edit my thread for some reason long before It was locked. Does that say anything? No, not really but it shows at least 1 dev went back to the thread about 14 days later for some reason when nothing changed. (Yes it's a joke)
(12-03-2020, 03:01 PM)Malong Wrote: /sigh, this again. It's been 6-7 years (August 2013 to now) and this thread demonstrates your reading comprehension level. Reading regularly for that duration would have been more beneficial, but I guess you're not interested because it's not attached to an electronic form of vapid escapism. Regardless, nobody is falling for it:
Once an upon a time I enjoyed how meta this was. Even reading this will not change your mind. That's how meta this is.
You can be somewhat understanding (to some extent) and showing I have some problems. I do have some small problems, however... Then simultaneously saying I can't get better at with practice. I still enjoy this to some extent as it makes me laugh on how someone can be so hypocritical yet dismissive. "Reading regularly" the way you put It sounds like you believe everyone can and does learn the same way. I do read more than you think but to say "read a book" would help is once again hypocritical.
Some people learn better in theory and some people learn better at prac. Some between that and others neither as they have found a different way. I know what works best for me over the year and years of trying different things. Go look at a thread I made In 2014 or whatever. I have not become even avg In some things but I've improved so much that I'm almost happy at where I'm at.
For you to imply you now better is extremely superficial when everyone knows to some extent people improve using different methods. What works for you chances are will not work for me. I wish it was the case but life is not that easy.
(13-03-2020, 03:35 AM)Malong Wrote: What? So the primary intention was solely the removal of gold (rather than it being a side effect) and not the introduction of a new tier of items? And you think it was intended for people to have 10+ awakened legendaries, and in some cases (at the time of this post), 40+? Especially when the patch note was:
(29-01-2018, 04:34 AM)Winter Wrote: These items are not meant for everyone to be able to obtain, nor are they something people are supposed to amass. They are for the few people that want to upgrade specific legendary items they have grown attached to.
I'm sure what Winter said was probably said about house craftables or at lest normal legendaries at one point as well. I'm sure that comment was not meant to age well otherwise me and you would probably be paying more for upgrades already or something else.
To start did we really want one more tier of items? I remember Nka and I were talking about if upgrades never came Its possible we could have gotten everything. That was Nka's goal after all before upgrades came but once upgrades came both of us jumped making upgrades that day. So... to say we wanted better stats is true and I'm not going to argue that. Everyone wants better gear no shit.
In 1-2 years time If Ni Is still going what do you want Ni to be? Would you be happy if we got a new tier above upgrades...? It's possible... I don't want It to be the case but looking at the market I feel like we have similar but opposite problems before upgrades came. Were gold was "not wanted at all" now some items are not wanted at all.
The question Is did the community want there to be better items out there more than It wanted a fix for gold. People like me in 2017 made trades like 60m gold + (70m items at the time) for 1 item being Typhoon. Gold was "worthless" to the point asking for a few extra mill on trades was almost guaranteed. Gold problems, In general, affect everyone as we all have the same income being... gold... This is hence why when I say If gold is wanted so badly for upgrades it affects everyone.
If they wanted to make a new tier of items more then they wanted to fix the gold problem the fix would not be what It is today and what It was at the time. 1st round of upgrades we got 100-150m gold out of the market vs getting not even 10 upgrades out of it. What affected the market more It being a massive gold sink or legendaries not being number 1 anymore.
To say the primary intention was solely so the 1% could get better items is dismissive when the gold problem affected everyone.
(13-03-2020, 03:35 AM)Malong Wrote: I get the strong feeling you've never paid taxes before in your life. Taxes are required contributions. Players opt into paying the cost of an upgrade, but it's a tax instead of just the cost of the upgrade? Players that are otherwise "rich" but not interested in upgrades do not have to pay anything (again, while taxes are required contributions).
I have many times and its not that hard if you get all you need beforehand. If you are organised and prepared it's not hard.
No idea how different it is for you but In Au I can do it in a few hours If I have everything ready and the site does not crash like it did last time... A bit like how upgrades are easier if you have what's needed before you decide to make one.
I used the example of a tax as like I said to Disco on week one of upgrades "I could probably keep my gold and be better off within a year". If you don't believe I said that well I did it with Vlka's gold and got some nice stuff with it. Got an Elegy for 3m gold etc... The point is even if you don't craft an upgrade what is that gold doing? If you use it in a trade It will In time be put into a gold sink or go into an account that doesn't use it for anything.
Upgradings being a rich tax is just an easy way to explain this or at least I think so. If the rich want gold for upgrades chances everyone will want gold to buy what the rich are not using. Right now a lot of orange and red legendaries are getting looted then being quickly sold on Ah for that nice gold. I don't have a problem with the idea of that but I do when It's to this scale.
The upgrade update benefited Ni in full more than the 1%. The 1% just got a tax they are willing to pay or look into paying as they would want the end result. Should I call that a tax probably not but not sure of a better word... Got any?
(12-03-2020, 03:01 PM)Malong Wrote: And second, hilariously: you expected me to scroll down a list of many search results for a thread about "gold sinks" titled "Hero+." Yet you are not expected to find a search result about "uncrafting" that is literally titled "Uncrafting" (which is the same as the search term). How hypocritical.
The difference being I didn't expect you to even look or care in the 1st place given I didn't remember how petty you can be.
If I was looking for evidence of you wanting a gold sink before upgrades (as that's all I claimed). I would start end of 2017 and type "gold sink". By this logic, my thread would have been one of the 1st to come up and me being the thread creator is a bonus. That thread is all I needed to prove my cases. Like I said If you want more info you could find it.
God look at what I said. "I would read this post If anything [Link] I suggested uncrafting all the way back In 2016 and Its probably been suggested before that. At least 1 dev probably still likes the idea."
-It's not hypocritical
-It never claimed I was the 1st I even said that on the post.
-It was more Winters reply then my post I wanted you to look given that the post I link and not my own.
-It may give you an idea of how he may still feel on the topic.
As we don't have uncrafting it's either to much work or something the devs don't want to do. This is hence why I have 3 ideas on this thread to give the best chance for really anything to happen.
As I said I don't care what happens I just want something to happen.
(12-03-2020, 03:34 PM)Malong Wrote: But anyway, here you go: Tempest to Ullrs Bane is not an apples-to-apples comparison. The number of classes that can equip an item is a pointless figure if the distribution of the actual players spec'ing each possible hero is not equal (and it's not): traditionally, Warden was more spec'ed than the other three Archer heroes combined. So you are comparing the best bow for suboptimal and unpopular classes to the best bow for the optimal and the most widely-played class. Furthermore, this is ignoring the fact that Tempest was introduced years after Ullrs Bane. At least compare something like Onyx Bolts and Rending Bolts, where (unlike Warden and Archers) Chosen Marksman never dwarfed the other three Crossbowman heroes.
But anyway, yes, orange items are replaced by red items. And don't bother with some bullshit like there being no red version of Severance because there's no exact red item that is usable by both Legionnaire and Pikeman hero that is a throwing axe. This should not have be spoonfed to anybody: the replacement does not have to be a 1:1 correspondence. If you are a Legionnaire, Malice and Glory are better. If you are a Pikeman hero, Volcanic Daggers and Twigs are better. Severance is obsolete.
Ummm.
For how viable and optimal heroes are has nothing to do with my example.
For when items are added has nothing to do with my example.
For what items are valued has nothing to do with my example.
For when items came out has nothing to do with my example.
This is a straw man argument or you don't understand it.
I used bows as my example as they have only a few stats that change between them. The only thing that changes is +3p +2 missile speed and + 5 Accuracy and who can use them.
![[Image: fc3d3e4e99b16ee026ac2374113bf040.png]](https://i.gyazo.com/fc3d3e4e99b16ee026ac2374113bf040.png)
You do gain something going from Tempest to Ullr's that being usability... It may be not a cost you would be willing to take as It's subjective. It's still valued in the system just as much as Tempest. Unless Winter wants to tell me 1 hero locked items are the rarest.
You do gain something going from Ullr's to F-bow that being usability... It may be not a cost you would be willing to take as It's subjective. The defiance here is this "I see them as just about the same as reds already just with a buff none uses." That point can't be argued with. Orange legendaries are clearly better than reds at something.
Do we...
A. Buff the stats and take away their usability that made them clearly better at something than all other items. This would give people more options in terms of items given how much people still like all hero reds.
B. Embrace this usability and buff It to the point a new playstyle is viable. It wouldn't be optimal but it will not be obsolete likey they are now. Maybe the devs could turn back on this train of thought [Link] given people before did like playing Hybrids.
C. Give away for plays to trade in the items they just got. [Link] The market is not fun right now and It's not looking like its slowing down if anything its getting worse every day.
We have the loots from 2012 but we don't have those players anymore. The market has no way to get rid of some items and a lot of games like this give the players the option to "uncraft" or trade-in at a cost for something else.
As I said I don't care what happens I just want something to happen.
To say Severance is obsolete is subjective even now. It should be better than Db If you rather axes for some reason. If you say its Db is objectively better then you would agree with me It probably needs a buff otherwise Db a nerf.
Making It red as I implied would put It on line with Twigs. It would be subjective to say Twigs are better than a Severance because if you say its objectively better then you would agree with me It probably needs a buff otherwise Twigs a nerf.
(13-03-2020, 03:35 AM)Malong Wrote: And if few players choose that alleged "buff," then it doesn't have much utility nor value.
Subjective. When a new player loots let say a Legacy but still wants to go Zwei It's subjective to say the only option is to keep it.
Players make this choice every day and there is no right answer.
(13-03-2020, 03:35 AM)Malong Wrote: I don't believe I ever called them "peasant items" or anything to that effect. In my viewpoint, it's bad for the community to unload items that won't hold their value to get gold out of new players, when those new players should be using their gold to get better items that will last longer for them. Instead, I advise players to only craft and acquire house crafted items that are used in recipes of awakened legendaries, so the player doesn't take too much of a loss if or when they get better gear.
As for calling the items obsolete: well, they are. And that's not me imposing my viewpoint on others, it's a viewpoint that many people independently conclude. If orange legendaries and light blue items were usable by Tier 3 characters, I would still consider them to be bad and not advise anyone from acquiring the vast majority of them outside looting. What happens when that player gets to Hero? Congratulations, you're a Hero equipped with something that has been replaced. Good job!
I was the one to call them peasant items In an event. More of an old joke for the people that may remember.
Grate you advise players what to craft and what to buy. Nice.
What about the older people with craftables none wants? What about when anyone loots anything most of Ni does not want or need?
I would advise players to do what they feel like. I'll tell them what's more optimal but if they enjoy something I'll say "Well that's an option." This is a game, after all, some people find it fun to be as optimal as they can all the time and others just want to do something a bit more different.
Playstyle is subjective (as long as you are going by the rules you a good). I'll tell people how to be optimal but I'm not going to stop them from doing what they want. How you play and what you play is up to you and only you.
Devs know that as they give us options not just in heroes but in items as well. Right now I have Upgraded Dur, Upgraded Scorn, Upgraded Moj, Upgraded Pride, ... I can't tell you what one I like to use the most as It changes day to day. Almost none plays 100% optimal as I can see you do have a Jugg for some reason.
If I and others want to play as Hybrids that's up to us not you or even the Devs to some extent. The Dev's have made it harder to play given they lowed the possible stats you could have but also they took away the usability legendaries and other items had. The (B) request Is simple as It just roles back to how it was with maybe some changes.
Nothing will change for those that don't want to use those items after the update other than... If you have an orange item more people will want them. For those that do well now, it became more viable not optimal but viable to play as a Tr3 + Tr3 + Tr1.