New Legacy Stats

[Madjosh]

• Legacy: -3 speed, +4 damage

...this is just ridiculous, definitely needed a nerf and not a buff

the rest is sensible,

thanks

[Xen]

[quote author=Winter link=topic=32601.msg242120#msg242120 date=1441589222]

• Legacy: -3 speed, +4 damage

...this is just ridiculous, definitely needed a nerf and not a buff

the rest is sensible,

thanks
[/quote]
Well it's a Zweihander only sword, most legendary hero class only weapons are meant to be way better than the legendary non hero class only weapons.
So I actually don't see how this is ridiculous, like the Mangler... it's really strong far better than the other polearms is that ridiculous?

[Madjosh]

[quote author=Madjosh link=topic=32601.msg242131#msg242131 date=1441596468]
[quote author=Winter link=topic=32601.msg242120#msg242120 date=1441589222]

• Legacy: -3 speed, +4 damage

...this is just ridiculous, definitely needed a nerf and not a buff

the rest is sensible,

thanks
[/quote]
Well it's a Zweihander only sword, most legendary hero class only weapons are meant to be way better than the legendary non hero class only weapons.
So I actually don't see how this is ridiculous, like the Mangler... it's really strong far better than the other polearms is that ridiculous?
[/quote]

is this a new dev stance, in the past hero locked items were never WAY better but marginally better, especially when comparing hard drops to ragnarok drops?

the talhoffer is class locked, and, is worse than many other unlocked weapons in it's crafting range, the zweihander helmets share a plus 1 attribute over the unlocked commando legendary helms (hardly way better), The ragnar's wrath and illustrious are hardly WAY better than the dwp, fang let alone dragon axe. Rupturers are hardly MUCH better than twiggs. There is little precedence to base this claim on. As it stands, i don't believe the legacy dropped from ragnar should but a stark upgrade to the durendal dropped by odin which has always been stronger than the legacy (although not really) in the past. Call me old fashioned but this buff is not "fair and balanced".

[Winter]

the talhoffer is class locked, and, is worse than many other unlocked weapons in it's crafting range, the zweihander helmets share a plus 1 attribute over the unlocked commando legendary helms (hardly way better), The ragnar's wrath and illustrious are hardly WAY better than the dwp, fang let alone dragon axe. Rupturers are hardly MUCH better than twiggs. There is little precedence to base this claim on. As it stands, i don't believe the legacy dropped from ragnar should but a stark upgrade to the durendal dropped by odin which has always been stronger than the legacy (although not really) in the past. Call me old fashioned but this buff is not "fair and balanced".

Whoa, chill.  That is a very unnecessarily aggressive tone.  The Legacy has end stats of 93 speed, 145 reach, and 69 cut.  The Durendal is still high up there at 97 speed, 134 reach, and 66 cut.  I wouldn't see that is the Legacy far outshining it.  A little better?  Yes.  It is longer and a bit more damage, but a bit slower.  This seems pretty fitting for the Zweihander class.  Look at Elegant Flamberge (90/60/166) compared to Elegant Greatsword (97/62/120) and Forlorn Hope (97/62/131) compared to Bidenhander (94/61/142).  I know it isn't the best comparison as each matched pair are exactly the same in crafting cost and requirements, but it does show how length, speed, and damage are all moved around to try to balance each other and make the swords unique.  It seems a fine change to try to have a  slightly slower, slightly longer, and higher damage sword for Zweihander than for all Commandos.

That being said, all stats are subject to change over time to make room for new items or re-balance existing ones.  There is no need to make an angry post on the patch thread when you can write a Feature Request showing sound numbers and logic or even just wait to see how things go.

[Madjosh]

there was no aggression intended in my tone, unless people chose to read it as an attack rather than a discussion about stats. I'm just expressing my opinion on the new patch stats. Because I'm not agreeing with what seems to be the majority does not infer malice. If this is the new dev stance then i look forward to seeing future changes to all class locked items which in the past haven't been so starkly stronger than their unlocked counterparts. miscommunication aside, it seems the shorter swords (ele greatsword and forlorn hope have higher speed and damage) and the longer swords (biddenhander, ele flamburge have higher length,less speed and damage) i assume this damage and speed vs length is to fufill balance between the three attributes available to sword stats. To convert that over to the durendal vs legacy (lower damage, and length the former but 5 more speed) (Legacy higher length, higher damage), it  just seems to me that where the legacy was arguably better than the durendal in the past fulfilling the length but less speed and damage sword preference niche, it now sits in an area swords have never gone before, length and very high damage (the highest base damage cut weapon in game now?). It sounds too good to be reasonably true.

edit: i like swords, especially the 2h ones hence my interest. I'm not grinding the dev teams gears, i'm great full for their work especially of late which has been excellent, i'm just curious as to the above.

[Winter]

Right, very good to have that cleared up.  Thank you for your interest.

As far as this goes, it is a bit of a new area for 2h swords (and 2h melee in general) that I decided would be good to explore.  It seemed Zweihander would be the most fitting class to receive this type of sword.  If this new niche seems popular, the other Zweihander swords may be adjusted into it as well.

There is not a new stance that hero class locked items should be significantly better, it is still held that it should be slight numbers.

[Soviet]

I agree. 69 damage is too much. I don't understand why it should deal more damage than the Durendal, seeing as the length is already a huge bonus. A lot of people already considered it to be better than Durendal before the update.

[Tsukiyomi]

I agree. 69 damage is too much. I don't understand why it should deal more damage than the Durendal, seeing as the length is already a huge bonus. A lot of people already considered it to be better than Durendal before the update.

I agree with this.  Durendal was supposed to be the top tier 2h sword but seems outclassed now.  TBH the Legacy and VGS were already both better for slashing than Durendal due to the higher reach (although one could have argued that the durendal being faster and higher damage was better).  Now there isn't really much room for balance getting the highest damage and 2nd(?) longest reach.  If the damage and reach are going to be far higher the speed needs a much more serious nerf.  Current stats seem pretty unbalanced atm.

*edit*  Thinking about it these stats also don't really make sense considering the model of the Legacy.  Why would such a long thin sword be crazy high damage and slow?  If the idea was to try out a high damage/length with low speed the AGS model would make far more sense (the stats on it are currently not great either).

[DR.]

[quote author=Soviet link=topic=47406.msg242159#msg242159 date=1441624317]
I agree. 69 damage is too much. I don't understand why it should deal more damage than the Durendal, seeing as the length is already a huge bonus. A lot of people already considered it to be better than Durendal before the update.

I agree with this.  Durendal was supposed to be the top tier 2h sword but seems outclassed now.  TBH the Legacy and VGS were already both better for slashing than Durendal due to the higher reach (although one could have argued that the durendal being faster and higher damage was better).  Now there isn't really much room for balance getting the highest damage and 2nd(?) longest reach.  If the damage and reach are going to be far higher the speed needs a much more serious nerf.  Current stats seem pretty unbalanced atm.
[/quote] I have a Legacy and i feel the same way But i can see what Winters saying

If it to have this 69c i would say less speed like 91-92  (Btw this is best sword for people with  high ping as for me it the same speed as before)

[Winter]

*edit*  Thinking about it these stats also don't really make sense considering the model of the Legacy.  Why would such a long thin sword be crazy high damage and slow?  If the idea was to try out a high damage/length with low speed the AGS model would make far more sense (the stats on it are currently not great either).

This is a very good point and has given me an idea for the next round of 2h stats.  I've also made a thread for dealing with stat changes in Feature Requests:  http://forum.nordinvasion.com/index.php?...440.0.html  I am locking this discussion and hoping it moves to that thread.