Archer class whoring!

[JOPO]

Archers are the most important part of darn hardmode , and i dont mind getting 31k assist exp for tanking in a shieldwall.

[clickeverywhere]

You guys are correct, but there is also the problem of infantry players who refuse to shield. Oftentimes I have to repeatedly ask others to shield, me being the only one shielding, and people still don't shield even when our line is broken leading to the whole team wiping. What I'm saying is, a greedy player is a greedy player regardless of what class he or she is playing. Perhaps players just haven't seen the extreme increases in reward from higher waves, or perhaps they just can't comprehend that all of the experience they gained from wave one can be gained by killing one bot on wave 12. Whatever the reason, this shortsightedness is especially rampant in normal mode. Somehow players manage to be incompetent at shielding as well, which is very frustrating as all you have to do is hold down right click and press t, y, or u. After that you can tab out and do whatever for a while. It's not that hard. Shield until the team wipes, then switch with an attacker. You can then both benefit. It is all too often that you find the incompetent clambering for the best spot for attacking, failing to listen to orders, failing to repeatedly spam overhead swings, standing behind others who are doing overheads, standing in front of archers firing -- this kind of thing is truly mind boggling. I have hoped that these kinds of situations would be remedied by playing with a House, but even then there are those who seem incapable of following basic instructions. I have figured out the true meaning of your post, Zetus. It is not cowardly archers that you hate, it is people and their nature. It is not the sly and cunning who hold us back, it is the stupid and ridiculous. Those with cunning would happily work as a team, because you can only get far if everybody survives.

Forgive me if this post is incoherent. This post is incoherent.

[Blondin]

I see your point Zetus, it's true that a good ratio is needed, and 70/30% is not a good ratio, atleast to go far on waves, i mean a big group of archers needs nobody for the first wave but get in trouble once we reach high tear bots.

About loot and kills, expecially on hard mod, this has been stated in many other threads, and devs said they take a look at that and think of a shared loot system.
But, Zetus, you are a bit hard with Wow players (as you said) because all of this is linked, you see more archers for many reasons:
-  Archers, are in almost all mods the easiest class to play, and it is the one with less risk for great rewards
-  They are really efficient, you can almost one-shot any bot with a headshot.
-  Many players created an alt because of the no-loot in normal mod
-  some ppl like fps

One strange thing is that cav and archer are the class that can solo many waves, infantry almost always need "support" class to achive same goal.
Infantry is more harder, require more skills because big groups of bots jump on you and any mistake could make you dead.
I don't think archer (and cav) should be nerfed, but infantry could be made more appealing, may be with better armors, or with higher strengh cap, or a new brillant idea

Anyway, i'm talking about normal mod, because on hard mod the best way to go far (except on certain map with cav) is a good teamwork, and nobody is better than infantry in shield skill, but there is a better ratio of archer/inf.
Edit: Click you're right, many ppl don't understand the primary role of shieldwall, and rather like to grind, but it is something understandable in some way, i agree everybody has a role to play, but shielder role is really un-appealing : you do the hard work, take maximum risk but win nothing except assist xp. But once you reach high level assist xp is no more a goal, everybody needs loot and gold.
Btw, i'm like you, always here for shieldwall, always here to take the place if someone die in shieldwall, etc. I still take pleasure to play (not like Eye that is tired, but he must play more than me, i understand), but i have not any material reward for this.

Edit2 : i made an incoherent post too

[Kwal]

Spoiler

You guys are correct, but there is also the problem of infantry players who refuse to shield. Oftentimes I have to repeatedly ask others to shield, me being the only one shielding, and people still don't shield even when our line is broken leading to the whole team wiping. What I'm saying is, a greedy player is a greedy player regardless of what class he or she is playing. Perhaps players just haven't seen the extreme increases in reward from higher waves, or perhaps they just can't comprehend that all of the experience they gained from wave one can be gained by killing one bot on wave 12. Whatever the reason, this shortsightedness is especially rampant in normal mode. Somehow players manage to be incompetent at shielding as well, which is very frustrating as all you have to do is hold down right click and press t, y, or u. After that you can tab out and do whatever for a while. It's not that hard. Shield until the team wipes, then switch with an attacker. You can then both benefit. It is all too often that you find the incompetent clambering for the best spot for attacking, failing to listen to orders, failing to repeatedly spam overhead swings, standing behind others who are doing overheads, standing in front of archers firing -- this kind of thing is truly mind boggling. I have hoped that these kinds of situations would be remedied by playing with a House, but even then there are those who seem incapable of following basic instructions. I have figured out the true meaning of your post, Zetus. It is not cowardly archers that you hate, it is people and their nature. It is not the sly and cunning who hold us back, it is the stupid and ridiculous. Those with cunning would happily work as a team, because you can only get far if everybody survives.

Forgive me if this post is incoherent. This post is incoherent.

I fully agree. Not only am I on a large amount of rounds the only shielder, but I also tend to be the only medic. People just refuse to play with teamwork as long as they can go lolspam (even if it doesn't bring them any kills). The thing with archers who only use barricades to elevate themselves has also mindboggled me. Not always though, sometimes I get to play the mod for more than 15 minutes of frustration when there is a decent team available.

[Sparhawk]

While this is all very interesting and it helps to vent your feelings about those pesky archers (I am one of them but I don't think you will find anyone that will say I hide and let the team die around me. In fact most of my deaths are me trying to get a mate out of trouble) it isn't accomplishing a thing as far as I can see. Is there something you want the admins to do about it Zetus? Or is this just trying to convince people to go infantry instead of archer? Hell, I even pick up a shield or two and step in when a shielder dies.

[Sighvatr]

Zetus, you don't have any idea what your talking about. It takes more skill to aim and kill bots then backpedaling and slashing enemies while having autoblock enabled. I can understand why you would hate archers on Native, but to hate other archer players on NordInvasion is ridiculous. In fact, the game is a lot more interesting to play as either cavalry and/or archer then it does as Infantry.

Your rant has no effect, go play another game.

[Hypernoma]

Be very careful; this topic is verging on being closed. There better be constructive point without insults up next (Sighvatr this is directed mainly at you).

Do not moan, instead discuss rationally and if the subject matter is one that will not result in anything constructive; don't post.

[Zetus]

[...]
I have figured out the true meaning of your post, Zetus. It is not cowardly archers that you hate, it is people and their nature. It is not the sly and cunning who hold us back, it is the stupid and ridiculous. Those with cunning would happily work as a team, because you can only get far if everybody survives.
[...]

I sadly admit that You are 100% correct.

[...]
Is there something you want the admins to do about it Zetus?
[...]

I belong to a minority of players that want from this mod mainly cooperation and good atmosphere. The whole stats and leveling system is a secondary feature for me. That's why instead of starting a thread with a topic like "Yo let's nerf archers!" I first wanted to see if anyone shares my concerns about current gameplay. What I want from admins is to look at this thread and see that we have a problem.

And if I could make some changes what would I do? (this can get a little OT)

It's obvious that people get easily swallowed by current mmoish leveling and equipment system. The thing is that You don't really need to get to high waves and cooperate with the team to be successful in that system. You can survive 4 waves each round and eventually get the same level and gear as a player who has godlike coop skills. Archer class is right now the best way to farm exp without much effort and without giving a shit about other players. We will re spawn in two minutes anyway right? so who cares... Paradoxically people who want to fully devote themselves to help their battle-mates will fall behind with their levels (yes, healers).

My solution would be as follows:
- No individual rewards for kills. Neither loot nor exp. All loot would be randomly distributed among players. Equal exp for everyone with each kill.
- Exp rewards would grow exponentially with each wave, in other words: You wouldn't get much happiness from killing peasants only, unless you were a newbie.
- Bonus exp with each wave survived.
- Strong system detecting idle players.
- For further consideration would be a complete removal of autoblock. That would make shield players play a proper role as tankers and two handers as damage dealers. Archers on the other hand would get too scared to fight on their own.

If people see that teamwork is the only way to get shiny legendary items and high stats they won't struggle with it. This would also fix the archer problem because from what I've seen servers with most people playing as archers don't get too far.

[Fingus]

My solution would be as follows:
- No individual rewards for kills. Neither loot nor exp. All loot would be randomly distributed among players. Equal exp for everyone with each kill.
- Exp rewards would grow exponentially with each wave, in other words: You wouldn't get much happiness from killing peasants only, unless you were a newbie.
- Bonus exp with each wave survived.
- Strong system detecting idle players.
- For further consideration would be a complete removal of autoblock. That would make shield players play a proper role as tankers and two handers as damage dealers. Archers on the other hand would get too scared to fight on their own.

I agree with all of the above. This would make the perfect NI mod. And it's good to see something constructive come out of this discussion.

So, are these features possible to achieve with the M&B engine?

[freiwulf]

Archers on the other hand would get too scared to fight on their own.

they would only resort to the same tactics as they already do as stated from your first post

I am a sergeant so I play on normal servers. With recent changes every little bitch camps back with a bow.

My solution would be as follows:
- No individual rewards for kills. Neither loot nor exp. All loot would be randomly distributed among players. Equal exp for everyone with each kill.
- Exp rewards would grow exponentially with each wave, in other words: You wouldn't get much happiness from killing peasants only, unless you were a newbie.
- Bonus exp with each wave survived.
- Strong system detecting idle players.
- For further consideration would be a complete removal of autoblock. That would make shield players play a proper role as tankers and two handers as damage dealers. Archers on the other hand would get too scared to fight on their own.

i agree these are really good points except maybe autoblock a number of 'the less experianced players' use autoblock as a way to help them and taking that away is hindering them which hinders the team as a whole