Ragnarok requirement level

[Maroon]

At level 39 the marketplace equipment, mearly damages them, a level 39 player is more a hindrance them a benefit to a rag team

And thus all level 39 characters should be unable to join? In my opinion, upping the required level is the same as, for example, disallowing every supporter of a football club to go to a game, because some of them might cause trouble. It's an overreaction to a problem that isn't all that big, and it affects way more people than just the ones causing trouble.
The same goes for disallowing all characters under 50 or 52 from joining. While it is true that most players at that point do not have high-end gear, if we're talking about people who just got their first character up to 39, those same people will not have gotten much better gear at level 50, simply because of the investment required for it.
Not to mention the fact that most transitions between tiers of weapons and armor aren't all that big. Yes, a Swadian Halberd is more effective than a German Poleaxe, but the differences aren't substantial.
And finally, how many people with top tier equipment are required to get far in ragnarok? You need one or two shielders, preferably two or three people bringing in short heavy's, someone with a tome, two or three decent slashing weapons, and some decent shooters. If we combine all of that, you end up with 7-8 people. It's not like you instantly wipe when you do not get 16 people bringing in blue weapons and armor.

TL/DR: level requirement is fine as it is, because raising the requirement excludes people that weren't the cause of this 'problem', their stuff isn't that inefficient, and you don't need a full hero-class team to succeed.

And please, don't try to add a poll about this. 90% of the people on these forums are far beyond hitting level 50, including myself, and as such do not represent the entire NI community.

[-Perception-]

[...]
While it is true that most players at that point do not have high-end gear, if we're talking about people who just got their first character up to 39, those same people will not have gotten much better gear at level 50, simply because of the investment required for it.
[...]

Now please tell me how to earn money on ragnarok.. 
(Legendaries dont count.)
You can earn a lot more cash on hard mode via drops, so basicly, if youre not as freaking unlucky as I am, you will most likely have enough cash to afford a SHC after playing hardmode til level 50. Then again, I couldnt care less about the level cap..

[Malong]

52. A post stating the intention of Ragnarok and Hard can be found here:

Spoiler

To introduce a challenge for the already established house/players while still allowing for reasonably sane progression for newer players, the current hard mode will be renamed "Ragnarok Mode", and a third mode will take its place in allowing progression between level 32-52 with barebones equipment, and 52 with reasonably high end craftable equipment. This new middle difficulty will hopefully give the middle ranked houses and players a more even progression.

I and others have interpreted this that you are to use Hard to progress in levels (from 32 to 52), and gear ("reasonably high end craftable equipment") to Ragnarok. Also, it mentions middle ranked houses using this for progression, implying that the highest ranked houses were the target of Ragnarok, not everyone in the game. If either interpretation is incorrect, then please let us know.

But right now, people play the very short interval of 32-39 in Hard and then look for any public Ragnarok server where, while they contribute by playing actively, their contributions are entirely enabled by the rest of the people in the server. How far would a 39-51 DPS, Healer, or Juggler get without the Shielders, Engineers bringing in SHCs and Barrels, Medics with Tomes and Boxes? This also doesn't touch on the weapons being dropped by the well-geared players on respawn or tome waves. To be clear, I do not fault players for doing this: by nature, people will follow the path of least resistance, and getting the best experience, gold, and drops while the rest of the server provides the required classes/gear/support items is the easiest way to progress.

As for responses to other posters:

• Im level 48 on my commando and Im always in the top 5. Even when I was just commando I ended up shielding multiple times as a base commando.

  I imagine you mean top 5 kills. But to echo previous statement: How many of those kills would you have gotten on a Ragnarok server with no Shielders, SHCs, Tomes, good slashing weapons, other DPS classes killing important bots quickly before they reach the shield wall, etc. And while being a shielder with 6 Shielding is admirable, its value depends on the map, the position in the shield wall (not all sides get hit by bots equally), the quality of the DPS to kill bots before or as they reach the shield wall, whether or not you barrel in a speed run, and other factors that make shielding as a Commando (with no subclasses) possible.
  

• The whole idea of having better gear by then is a ridiculous concept as the only way to get better gear is to find lots of valuable mats and build your character slowly or have stuff given to you. Your expecting people who are forced to play Hard-mode for another 18 - 20 levels to have barrels and legendarys ?

  It's an extra 11-13 levels (50-39 and 52-39). Anyway...people are not asking for new Ragnarok players to have barrels and legendaries, but there are plenty of alternative armor and support items (weapons can be dropped by others at least) that are only a few hundred thousand gold each that are necessary for Ragnarok, the most obvious being SHCs which are sorely lacking in public runs. Players can play Hard mode and get the "valuable mats" there. Lumps, water, glasir, bear fur, scales, arrowheads, and so on all drop in Hard mode, are valuable, and are used in many high end crafting goals, and you can easily accumulate them to acquire or craft gear that is serviceable to endgame.
  

• This is just the best equipped people in the game complaining that they have to share with those less fortunate.

  The sharing has, for the most part, ended. The system has already driven the group that can consistently succeed in public rag runs to create coordinated runs (basically unofficial events) where people all join a server comprising only that group. Compare this to just two or three months ago when people would not feel this coordination was necessary. Hopefully upcoming changes would repair the schism in this relationship.
  
  

• This has been debated for too long and people need to understand that a lvl 39 on Ragnarok isn't a complete idiot & noob who isn't capable of playing with you, but someone to be encouraged and helped. If you teach a New ragnarok player how to play properly he wont be a hindrance.

  The few players with the initiative and drive to learn have done quite well. There's a big difference between players that are willing to learn independently and those that get spoon fed information after a problem arises. There are great and readily-available resources (e.g. Sphinx's the beginners guide, and Dan's Introduction to Hard Mode, apply concepts to Ragnarok). It would mean a lot if these new-to-Ragnarok players made some effort in learning and assimilating from the established players.
  

• And thus all level 39 characters should be unable to join?...It's an overreaction to a problem that isn't all that big, and it affects way more people than just the ones causing trouble...While it is true that most players at that point do not have high-end gear, if we're talking about people who just got their first character up to 39, those same people will not have gotten much better gear at level 50, simply because of the investment required for it.

  The part after the ellipsis supports the fact that an increased level requirement would only negatively affect the non-twinked level 39s, which is the minority. This contradicts the idea that "it affects way more people than just the ones causing trouble."
  

• Not to mention the fact that most transitions between tiers of weapons and armor aren't all that big.

  It's not the marginal upgrades in weapons and armor as much as it the support items. You see the mentality of players in public servers completely ignoring the goals of support items. Acquiring (for example) an SHC will help the team's survivability far more than spending 4 or 5 times the cost of an SHC to get an extra 2 body and leg armor for only yourself. Yet this is the common mentality amongst players.
  

• And finally, how many people with top tier equipment are required to get far in ragnarok? You need one or two shielders, preferably two or three people bringing in short heavy's, someone with a tome, two or three decent slashing weapons, and some decent shooters. If we combine all of that, you end up with 7-8 people. It's not like you instantly wipe when you do not get 16 people bringing in blue weapons and armor.

  Using Town as an example, the optimized is: three shielders, four slashers/pokers, three peeking ranged, and for support items, two tomes, four SHCs, one medic kit, and one barrel. Nonetheless, that doesn't mean that the people bringing in the necessary classes and items should just shrug off the rest and say "well, we can do all the work, so we welcome the others."
  
  

[madjsoh]

just buff the loot so players stop being bitchy like me!

[Spirit]

I am going to chime in here and say that I agree that a min level 50 for Ragnarok would not be unreasonable.  If there is suppose to be a progression and there is already a level 39 limit on Hard mode, then a level 50 AND tier 4 support for Ragnarok would be in line with that progression.  It would also allow the players to get more experience in the style of play AND the support items necessary to win at Ragnarok. 

Otherwise, to be consistent, just do away with all requirements and let level 1's join on Hard mode too.  If it is a "progression", then make it a progression.  If not, then why have any requirements for any mode....?

####

Now, with that said, I have to address some other points in the post from Malong that I absolutely disagree with.  I have nothing against him personally and have enjoyed his company on many runs, but I think that the whole attitude of hate and entitlement is what is actually the problem with NI currently.

#####

52. A post stating the intention of Ragnarok and Hard can be found here:

Spoiler

[quote author=Hypernoma]To introduce a challenge for the already established house/players while still allowing for reasonably sane progression for newer players, the current hard mode will be renamed "Ragnarok Mode", and a third mode will take its place in allowing progression between level 32-52 with barebones equipment, and 52 with reasonably high end craftable equipment. This new middle difficulty will hopefully give the middle ranked houses and players a more even progression.

[madjsoh]

*madjosh swoops in with a match in hand*

some good points made but...


1) in regards to your first post on faulting people and what not, well, i have to say that i hate it when someone with a dep shield and marketplace gear joins a rag server. but that said i cant fault them. this is the behaviour that is the result of leniency in level reqs for rag...there is a differance between fault and hate

2)yes the loot system requires the overhall that we have been anticipating but we must first look at why the tricksters have retreated into their tight knit group. for example a player sneaked into their ts learnt the password to their event and "stole" a legendary after joining on wave 16. hell i'd be royally pissed off if that happened to me but the examples don't stop there. i have personally seen afkers sitting in the back after killing last before thor AND odin loot durendals and fell edges (also having no kills or performing support roles etc). do they deserver legendaries? sure there may be instances where people overreact when some loots something but alas that is human nature however the tricksters have more reason to than most complain about loots despite their recent luck.

3)support class is extremely important in ragnarok and i think we can all agree it would be nice to see a support req added as well.

4) on your topic of drops i agree with you more than anyone but i wholeheartedly believe that it is not just the way in which items are awarded that needs a fix but also the amount of items being rewarded. atm the green drops i and others who i have talked to on both rag and hard have been almost insulting for the time and effort put in and i think the loot needs a significant buff in terms of green drops (don't turn this into a discussion about legendaries)

4) in response to your last topic i cant say i whole heartedly agree and i too have been the culprit of picking and choosing the team i want for public runs. however, does it make it wrong that i wish to play with my friends and members of my house rather than someone i have never met before let alone someone who has never made the effort to meet me? it is human nature to form groups and friendships. it would be going against logical thought to pick a randomer over a friend who you can talk and organise with over TS,skype etc unless you're friend is complete crap at the game. i believe it would be completely immoral to force people to cut out their friends and play with a stranger when they could be playing that same game with a friend (albeit this must be done with traditional methods i.e. not kicking randoms out of a server etc)

to conclude, i wrote this post to give a 3rd opinion on the matters raised here. i like both players and i play with both players constantly. both have raised good arguments and are entitled their own opinions as we all are. i do not mean to infringe on either s opinions just to offer clarity on the matters at hand.

p.s. more loot is the solution to all!!!!!!!!!!!!

[Malong]

I am sorry, but I have to call BS on this...In the same sentence you say you don't fault them, you complain about the carrying.... To say you "do not fault them" would be laughable if the situation such hatred is causing were not so serious.

I think you misunderstand: I do not fault people for playing Ragnarok with support-less level 39 characters, considering I (and many others I know) do the same for progressing to 52/hero. It's the path of least resistance.

[quote author=Malong link=topic=23179.msg166251#msg166251 date=1392584837]
The sharing has, for the most part, ended. The system has already driven the group that can consistently succeed in public rag runs to create coordinated runs (basically unofficial events) where people all join a server comprising only that group. Compare this to just two or three months ago when people would not feel this coordination was necessary. Hopefully upcoming changes would repair the schism in this relationship.

While I do agree that the loot system needs an overhaul, I disagree that it is the loot system that is causing the schism in the NI community.[/quote]
"The system" referred to the requirements as a whole, not loot.

I have to agree with Maroon on his point.  With a solid core group of players and a few key items, as long as the well geared players are actually willing to share their items and perhaps their knowledge with others, then there is room for the less fortunate, less charismatic, or even "casual" players who don't have hours a day to commit to this game...So I ask why would you NOT want to welcome other?  My opinion is the simple fact that your frustration about the loot system has been misdirected toward the players who have no control over it.

I appreciate my employer's office's janitorial staff's contributions to the operation of my employer, but I'm in no rush to add them to my direct deposit.

I don't care what your groups does on their events, but public servers are exactly that... PUBLIC.

After seeing the report made today and being in the NI channel (before your removal to a non-NI ts) when you are plotting which server to take over, I know exactly what is going on.  I have no doubt that you and your group of people descended on a server and refused to join in until they wiped and quit and then your group would be able to take over the server.  Were all the other Rag servers already in use at that time, or that was the one you wanted because of ping?  I know that you guys typically look for one that has zero players and then make a coordinated entry so that no "underserving" player sees it and joins in before it fills up.

I had nothing to do with that. Furthermore, the bolded excerpt seems to imply I can remotely control others' bodies and direct them into not joining the game. I'm not even present and it seems you want to fault "[me] and [my] group" for this. But since you brought it up (somewhat unprovoked), all "we" do is join an already-empty server (with a map and region we like), and check if everyone who is in the TS channel is in the server. If someone who was promised a spot did not join the server successfully, then we all leave the server and try rejoining shortly afterwards. Our contingency never involves staying and plotting their wiping/departure.

Other than that, I have also heard of your entire group leaving a server mid-run because someone you didn't like was able to join the server and you didn't want to "carry" them to the boss.  I don't have the details of that so there may be a legitimate reason such as an event starting.. but I find it very unlikely.

I do hope that the Dev's and Sr Admins take serious look at these behaviors and take immediate and decisive actions.  The only way the NI community is going to heal is if the attitudes of hatred changes.  If that means some players that are inciting others are permanently banned, then so be it.  The mod should be open for all of us to enjoy.. not just those whom some people deem "deserving".  Those that are creating the rifts should be cut out like a cancer.

And what determines the "legitimacy" of any reason? Nothing binds anybody to a server or session. Players have also been (by devs and admins) told that they can easily avoid players by leaving, rather than getting into in-game arguments. People that do this are merely applying that principle.

But while on this topic= it seems you are quite set on the idea that "[me] and [my] players" are the only ones that do this? Someone close to you (genetically and socially) used the same undesirable tactic well over a month before (November) "[me] and [my] players" did. They saw players they didn't like, we all tried to leave to another server to get necessary members in, but were thwarted and created an impromptu event. And the password to said event was "carrytrash." It's well documented in this post (click here) with the following quote:

Spoiler

Chris, Roman, and Legit were on a Ragnarok Server. Gold_Drop then told them to leave the server to bring in a tome bringer. These servers are public and are first come first serve. After arguing, the players left the server and left Roman, Chris and Legit alone. They then hopped around 4 servers to get back in with them. Winter then made the last Server VLKA_Event. Later on I found out this was a real event. Legit was then kicked and banned from the ts server.

"I and [my] players" don't have the luxury the create events with no advance notice, so we simply leave. If you take a closer look, you might see how long ago the "cancerous" behavior started to occur, that "I and [my] players" aren't the sole ones doing this (though you seem to imply we are), and how widely the "cancer" has spread.

[VM_Sargent_X]

########

And that is my seqway into my next topic.....

In my opinion, it is definitely an ordeal to get the materials to craft and possess those items and I blame the LOOT/CRAFTING system for making it too difficult for anybody but the most dedicated (or lucky) players to get them.  For a tome, 25 waters and 85 leads... are you freaking serious?!?!?!  In the last month, I have looted 1 lead, 1 sulfur, and maybe 2 water.  I only do a few runs each week because I have a wife, children, a job, and other interests.  If you are unlucky in drops and have to buy the stuff then how many runs would you have to do to get the gold.....

Lets say 150k assist exp from a Rag run... equals about 30k gold.  So it would take 33 runs to get 1 Million gold.... for 20 water or maybe 10-15 lead at current rates.  I don't know about you, but it would take me 2 months or more to accomplish 33 runs, given 6 runs (2 hours each) on a good week.  So what.. maybe six months of nothing more than saving up every gold for the materials and I can craft a tome....

Just going to chime in here and go off what Spirit said,  As one who just crafted a tome it took four players a month and a half to craft a tome.  We started working on it with 3 million gold.  We ended with just over 200k between the four of us.  We went on about 100 rag runs.  We also had to sell a Legendary to get enough money to buy the lumps. 
Was it worth it?  Yes.  Is that a lot of time for one person to try and craft one?  Absolutely. 

Just to give everyone the numbers.  Not selling anything other than green drops and starting at 1 million gold.  It would take one person 11 months doing 5 Rag runs a week getting to Odin to craft a tome.

[Darkfire]

[Image: giveup.gif]

[Maroon]

Sorry to say, Darkfire, but can you either post something that adds to the discussion, or leave the topic be? That gif might depict how you feel on the situation, but this discussion is rather serious, and not really a place for a gif post, in my opinion.

Returning to Malong's reply to my post:

52. A post stating the intention of Ragnarok and Hard can be found here:

Spoiler

[quote author=Hypernoma]To introduce a challenge for the already established house/players while still allowing for reasonably sane progression for newer players, the current hard mode will be renamed "Ragnarok Mode", and a third mode will take its place in allowing progression between level 32-52 with barebones equipment, and 52 with reasonably high end craftable equipment. This new middle difficulty will hopefully give the middle ranked houses and players a more even progression.