The Infantry Problem 2

[Kaasovic]

Regading inf being underpowered if you go to page 1 i think we said it isn't underpowered, but just too specialied in its roles to the extent it's not as fun or versatile. So without making it OP we were looking for ways to improve other aspects of it like more hp.

Careful with using words like we in this case, not everyone agrees with it.
Even though you keep mentioning it, improving the infantry classes isn't limited to hp.

Infantry has the most uses
They can shield
They can slash
They can tank
Most classes have 2 uses
Xbow shoots and shields
Pike shoots and slashes
Archer shoots and can sometimes slash
The only thing Infantry does not do is shoot
And it really is the only thing for tank

The versatility of the infantry classes all depends on your play style. It also depends on external factors, in this case the availability of shields in the shielding example and a spam healer for the tank example.
At the moment infantry doesn't feel tanky to me, therefor I propose chances to make the class more available to casual players. Remember that there are more people playing infantry. People who can only sit behind the barricades and do nothing and then be told by an admin to make themselves useful resulting in the usage of throwable weaponry. Regarding the point that most classes have two uses; I think that is not true. It all depends on your style of play. (not everyone wants to shield on pavise.)

remove wall cades and replace them by something else, like e.g. the smithy to improve items if you really want to make inf more viable.
and as terror already mentioned, your assumption that inf is there to tank is (sadly) only appliable in normal or hard mode (if you've got good equipment) , however you're dead pretty quickly in rag no matter how many red armour pieces you got
also, make the 1h weapons for inf longer.

Wall barricades are fine though, it is commonly used to protect you from incoming missiles. Improving items however will not help if you get overwhelmed by enemies. Your swings will probably be interrupted by incoming attacks resulting into death within a few swings.

[TerrorBite]

Regading inf being underpowered if you go to page 1 i think we said it isn't underpowered, but just too specialied in its roles to the extent it's not as fun or versatile. So without making it OP we were looking for ways to improve other aspects of it like more hp.

Careful with using words like we in this case, not everyone agrees with it. 
Even though you keep mentioning it, improving the infantry classes isn't limited to hp.

It was me that said that quote, not baron btw

Now MULTIPLE people did initially base comments along the lines of non-underpowered inf as the current state. Just look at woody's comments. The fun and versatility aspect was indirectly attained such as through leanderos comment on page 2. I could have said 'some of us' but if you actually rummage through all the bs and corrective comments like yours and this one, there is not much else. I also assumed others would throw in their own recollections of previous conclusions, so i didn't include everything.

Regarding the last part:

'we were looking'  for   'ways to improve other aspects of it'   LIKE   'more hp'
With the word groupings it should be easier to see that the 'we' was directed at investigating improvements and the 'more hp' was an example, so again I don't see any wording issues...

and for the record no one has had any arguments for or against extra hp iirc. So should I drop the idea because it has been essentially unnoticed?

[Kaasovic]

Regading inf being underpowered if you go to page 1 i think we said it isn't underpowered, but just too specialied in its roles to the extent it's not as fun or versatile. So without making it OP we were looking for ways to improve other aspects of it like more hp.

Careful with using words like we in this case, not everyone agrees with it. 
Even though you keep mentioning it, improving the infantry classes isn't limited to hp.

It was me that said that quote, not baron btw

Now MULTIPLE people did initially base comments along the lines of non-underpowered inf as the current state. Just look at woody's comments. The fun and versatility aspect was indirectly attained such as through leanderos comment on page 2. I could have said 'some of us' but if you actually rummage through all the bs and corrective comments like yours and this one, there is not much else. I also assumed others would throw in their own recollections of previous conclusions, so i didn't include everything.

Regarding the last part:

'we were looking'  for   'ways to improve other aspects of it'   LIKE   'more hp'
With the word groupings it should be easier to see that the 'we' was directed at investigating improvements and the 'more hp' was an example, so again I don't see any wording issues...

and for the record no one has had any arguments for or against extra hp iirc. So should I drop the idea because it has been essentially unnoticed?

That makes it more clearer. However if you read through the posts in this thread you will see that giving more hp to infantry keeps coming up. I am just saying that there are more ways to improve infantry, not just hp buff.

[DR.]

That makes it more clearer. However if you read through the posts in this thread you will see that giving more hp to infantry keeps coming up. I am just saying that there are more ways to improve infantry, not just hp buff.

Ye but why Hp, Armor are the main things going for Inf..

Ok, let's say you buff idk anything else 2h, 1h even Shielding... etc did that fix the problem? No? Are you still dying in battle in wave 2 of normal in 15 secs with a red set for jugg..? A nerf to cades (wall) does help ish but you are not fixing the problem you just made the game harder for all including Inf... And yes i want this game to get harder but thats not the point of this topic last time i looked.

The topic is the Infantry Problem not the "ranged is op" one. If you want to bring up the point "Well a team of ranged can do runs without inf" Well news flash but any set of the 3/4 class's can do rag. The only point you have is the other 3 class's can do a rag run by them self quite easly vs Inf ok well how do we change this.. mm think we are back to the buff idea.

[TerrorBite]

kass quote thingo (cbf efforting)
i can remember these suggestions from this thread:

more hp - more survivability
hp regen - more survivability in drawn out engagements
cade nerf - more force to the shielding niche
Edit: inf dmg reduction for certain game modes

reduced movement speed - hand in hand with a buff

of the ^ 4 points across 10 pages and 92 posts, I can't see any issue with one of these points being mentioned over 5x or so


woody quote thing

the reason for hp was explain on page 1 (hp through % of damage reduction like in jug)
essentially its similar to increasing armour, but it is moderated as a proportion to damage taken; so on normal and early hard, it will not be OP, and on rag it will be relatively more helpful in surviving, where ridiculous armour increases would otherwise be required to survive much longer.

[DR.]

woody quote thing

the reason for hp was explain on page 1 (hp through % of damage reduction like in jug)
essentially its similar to increasing armour, but it is moderated as a proportion to damage taken; so on normal and early hard, it will not be OP, and on rag it will be relatively more helpful in surviving, where ridiculous armour increases would otherwise be required to survive much longer.

Same thing my point was buff the survivability etc

[Kaasovic]

That makes it more clearer. However if you read through the posts in this thread you will see that giving more hp to infantry keeps coming up. I am just saying that there are more ways to improve infantry, not just hp buff.

Ye but why Hp, Armor are the main things going for Inf..

Ok, let's say you buff idk anything else 2h, 1h even Shielding... etc did that fix the problem? No? Are you still dying in battle in wave 2 of normal in 15 secs with a red set for jugg..? A nerf to cades (wall) does help ish but you are not fixing the problem you just made the game harder for all including Inf... And yes i want this game to get harder but thats not the point of this topic last time i looked.

The topic is the Infantry Problem not the "ranged is op" one. If you want to bring up the point "Well a team of ranged can do runs without inf" Well news flash but any set of the 3/4 class's can do rag. The only point you have is the other 3 class's can do a rag run by them self quite easly vs Inf ok well how do we change this.. mm think we are back to the buff idea.

Buffing armour rates takes way more time to do and balance then a simple HP buff. Remember that all the infantry items have to be done then, eventually this will lead to invulnerability on the Beginner/Normal gamemode. Buffing HP as an example can be limited to a certain gamemode without totally flooding the ti_on_agent_spawn trigger with endless (try_begin), (else_try) and (try_end) statements.

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kass quote thingo (cbf efforting)
i can remember these suggestions from this thread:

more hp - more survivability
hp regen - more survivability in drawn out engagements
cade nerf - more force to the shielding niche

reduced movement speed - hand in hand with a buff
(...)

I proposed this as well:

(...)
What I think is a better solution to the infantry "problem" is to mitigate damage received from bots on harder difficulties.

(...)
I can't see any issue with one of these points being mentioned over 5x or so

I don't see an issue with something being posted a couple of times, but I am just trying to say that all of these options should be taken in account, not just an HP buff

[TerrorBite]

I don't see an issue with something being posted a couple of times, but I am just trying to say that all of these options should be taken in account, not just an HP buff

"and for the record no one has had any arguments for or against extra hp iirc. So should I drop the idea because it has been essentially unnoticed?"

I missed your suggestion because it was only mentioned once(?) and was not discussed either?

[Sir Baron]

What I as trying to say is in a perfect NI every class has to uses
Infantry does do better then anyone but pike on slashing
And better then anyone at shielding
As for tank
Infantry have the best chance at being able to win a last ditch scramble
The have the best chance of staying alive after getting tomed in next to a bunch of nords

Also I know there are more whys of helping Infantry then a plain buff and that's what I want
If you just buff Infantry's armor or HP then other classes will start to think they are under powered and it would lead to more buffs until the nords are the only under powered thing here

[Rezev]

Xbow is not a shielding class I would say it's more to bring in a shield for Inf? An argument could be made to lock the Reinforced Kite Shield, Swadian Half-Board Shield, Tower Shield to Pc as they probs the only Hero that is using them just about. 


Altho this has been tried in the past and did not work but it's been about a year or 2 so never know what the dev's think now.

I mean, it's just not worth to craft RSKS becouse there are other better items for this price (design of this shield is awesome tho).
Defender>Aegis>Tower (there is nothing worth about 1-1.5m for PC only, gap between shields is huge).