Throwables vs Bows+ arrows

[[ASSASSINE]]

In this thread I would like to discuss the upgraded stats of bows and arrows compared to the upgraded stats of throwables. At the moment, if the stats are correct displayed, the upgraded typhoon and the upgraded zephyr do 70 p together (49p+21p) with a speed rating of 84 and a weight of 3 for a bow and two packs of arrows. 
However, the upgraded rupturers only deal 67 p, with a speed rating of 80 and a weight of 9 for 3 packs. Furthermore, each pack of arrows consist of 100 arrows, while there are 16 rupturers in each pack. Besides the penetration of shields and the ability to go through them, the bow and arrow outplay the rupturers in pretty much every stat. 
It doesnt seem right that the best throwable does less damage, than the (damage wise) best bow and arrows.

To make up for this, I would suggest to buff the damage of rupturers to 72/73 P, while the accuracy follows in the linear progression to make up for the increased damage. Furthermore, the speed rating should be equal to the typhoon, which is 84. So + 4 speed.
Feel free to discuss and share opinions.

[Kaasovic]

I don't see why something that took only one round to upgrade should do more damage then something that took two rounds to upgrade.
An upgraded typhoon only deals more damage with upgraded zephyr, when used with normal zephyr it deals equal damage.

While I think the amount of arrows an archer can carry in this mod has reached an point that is beyond ridiculous, archers are still less mobile then a Master Peltast.
Don't throwing weapons also get damage increase based on speed?

At the moment I don't see the point of increasing the damage output on rupturers by 5 or 6 points.

[poxix]

Warden / MP
Power draw 7 = Power throw 7
Archery 300 < Throwing 325

[DR.]

Keep in mind the stats of the class can have an impacted to the damage of the weapon you are using.

---

You would have better luck to argue about the upgraded stats on Rups is shit and ask for a buff.

Upgraded Rups
Weight Same 
Speed rating +2
Thrust damage +2
Max ammo Same
Shoot speed +2
Accuracy +5

Vs upgraded v-daggers

Weight Same 
Speed rating +3
Thrust damage +4
Max ammo +5
Shoot speed +2
Accuracy +7

Ye, it's not the best comparison but I would argue that V-daggers should get a smaller damage buff (2-3) and more speed making it better at what people got it for. 

As for Rups seeing how the difference between twigs and rups is 3p (the same difference between bows) The upgrade for spears should be 3p and why did the upgrade not give more ammo? It should get +1-2.



I do have other upgrades I want to bring up but to same my time i will list them and you can look at them for your self.

Blessed Phoenix Shield - Resistance/Weight 
Raging Typhoon - Accuracy
Blessed Excalibur - Thrust damage
Cursed Fang of Fenrir - Swing damage
Battle Honed Dragon Axe - Weight
Blessed Mjolnir - Weight
...

[Forward]

Why do you even think throwables should do same damage as bows? As a Warden you're glass cannon and trade your survivability for DPS. As a Master Peltast you're already have access to better armour which both lighter and protects better, have better Athletics skill and better Power Strike on top of it, so you can even successfully fight in melee in dirty situations. So if you want to compare you should compare MP with archer class with more or less same survivability abilities, like Ranger. Typhoon is Warden-locked bow and Ranger has no access to it, and in every possible aspect MP is better then Ranger.
Moreover throwing is best choice in this mod overall, providing all good ranged offence, melee offence, defence and kiting capabilities. So let's not make it even more OP then now.

[Tonic]

and why did the upgrade not give more ammo?

Ammunition as the Problem for a Pikeman.
I've been playing Pikeman since 2012 and I never had any problems with the damage or the accuracy. But it realy bothers me a lot, that i always run out of ammo while using Rups, Twiggs and DB.
I realy love my cursed Rups and i enjoy playing with them. But the biggest problem I have with them is the ammunition. Rups and Twiggs have 16/15 spears in one pack. Upgrading Rups or twiggs doesnt change anything at all. 48/45 Spears are simply not enough for a late game ragnarok wave. There's nothing worse than run out of spears in the middle of the wave, even if you've filled up before the wave startes. Pikemen already use the tactic to create reserve packs, because they know that they will run out of ammo, which you do not need when you are playing with Raging Volcs, as archer or as xbow.
Its so easy to solve this problem. Just do the same thing you did for the volcanic daggers. Give rups and twiggs some more ammo when upgrading them. +2 would be enough in my opinion.

[Irolltwenties]

Buff Twigs ammo and Pierce damage please. +2-4 on both should be sufficient.

Thank you.

[[ASSASSINE]]

Warden                     /                 MP
Power draw 7             =          Power throw 7
Archery 300                <          Throwing 325

The increase of damage per power throw is 10 % of the base damage, while the increase for power draw is 14 %, as far as I know. 25 extra skill is like 1 % or something like that. 

Why do you even think throwables should do same damage as bows? As a Warden you're glass cannon and trade your survivability for DPS. As a Master Peltast you're already have access to better armour which both lighter and protects better, have better Athletics skill and better Power Strike on top of it, so you can even successfully fight in melee in dirty situations. So if you want to compare you should compare MP with archer class with more or less same survivability abilities, like Ranger. Typhoon is Warden-locked bow and Ranger has no access to it, and in every possible aspect MP is better then Ranger.
Moreover throwing is best choice in this mod overall, providing all good ranged offence, melee offence, defence and kiting capabilities. So let's not make it even more OP then now.

 The lower weight on the body armor of master peltast and the higher ath makes up for the higher weight of the throwing weapons. Pikeman is a glass cannon class aswell. The increased melee damage of pikeman is compensated with the flying speed of arrows. Archers can shoot a long distance, while pikeman are limited to a closer range, before the projectile  drops to the ground. I dont understand, how you draw the conclusion to compare master peltast to a Ranger. This discussion is about the stats of the top tier equipment of the ranged damage based classes (master peltast and warden). If you get a spear to the chest from 15 m distance, the damage you take should be greater than the damage of the same distance with bows and arrows. 

I dont know, if you can actually use the crafting costs for comparing them. This would put ingame effort (time spent for grinding mats and gold) over realism. Furthermore, this favours classes, which use 2 parts to deal ranged damage over 1. Pikeman with 1 ranged weapon (throwables) has a disadvantage to archers (bows and arrows) and crossbows (bolts and crossbow). As i tried to explain the paragraph above. A spear to the chest should deal more damage, than arrows (at least from a close distance).

[Forward]

Warden                     /                 MP
Power draw 7             =          Power throw 7
Archery 300                <          Throwing 325

The increase of damage per power throw is 10 % of the base damage, while the increase for power draw is 14 %, as far as I know. 25 extra skill is like 1 % or something like that. 

Why do you even think throwables should do same damage as bows? As a Warden you're glass cannon and trade your survivability for DPS. As a Master Peltast you're already have access to better armour which both lighter and protects better, have better Athletics skill and better Power Strike on top of it, so you can even successfully fight in melee in dirty situations. So if you want to compare you should compare MP with archer class with more or less same survivability abilities, like Ranger. Typhoon is Warden-locked bow and Ranger has no access to it, and in every possible aspect MP is better then Ranger.
Moreover throwing is best choice in this mod overall, providing all good ranged offence, melee offence, defence and kiting capabilities. So let's not make it even more OP then now.

 The lower weight on the body armor of master peltast and the higher ath makes up for the higher weight of the throwing weapons. Pikeman is a glass cannon class aswell. The increased melee damage of pikeman is compensated with the flying speed of arrows. Archers can shoot a long distance, while pikeman are limited to a closer range, before the projectile  drops to the ground. I dont understand, how you draw the conclusion to compare master peltast to a Ranger. This discussion is about the stats of the top tier equipment of the ranged damage based classes (master peltast and warden). If you get a spear to the chest from 15 m distance, the damage you take should be greater than the damage of the same distance with bows and arrows. 

I dont know, if you can actually use the crafting costs for comparing them. This would put ingame effort (time spent for grinding mats and gold) over realism. Furthermore, this favours classes, which use 2 parts to deal ranged damage over 1. Pikeman with 1 ranged weapon (throwables) has a disadvantage to archers (bows and arrows) and crossbows (bolts and crossbow). As i tried to explain the paragraph above. A spear to the chest should deal more damage, than arrows (at least from a close distance).

I used Ranger as survivability-wise close class to MP, I don't agree with calling MP glass cannon at all. Being close range is completely compensated with 2(!!!!) more Athletics and lighter armour. Having same range DPS as Warden is not justified, because in cading scenario range doesn't matter, extra ammunition or pike can be put on the ground negating ammo count disadvantage too. So with same DPS MP will become overall better then Warden in every aspect, making him OP. I like balance as it is where both MP and Warden have each own pros and cons, so I think MP having little bit less DPS in top-setup is competely fair.

[DR.]

May as well add... Melee on pike is passable on rag but sniper ye not so much.