03-03-2020, 06:35 AM
This topic will be talking about what to maybe do In NI2 for a meta but nothing Is stopping this Idea being implemented Into NI1. Be a lot of work but I'm just suggesting an Idea nothing more.
To start, how do you balance items? This question seems straightforward however I want to get to the root of the question who do you balance around. Surprisingly I've seen many different answers to this question over the years. The answer for a competitive game is you balance around the best players (mostly). I would think Ni can be played to the point we know when we see a "pro" vs a "noob". You balance around pro because they know how to break the game but you need to still make some compromises to noobs because most people are not pros. I think heroes/classes should work the same way.
Should classes be balanced around how easy they are to use? To answer this question using my opinion It would be. The hardest classes to master In my eyes should be “the best classes”. Most people will be better off with an easier to use class but It gives a goal In player skill people can work towards If they want.
So on that topic what makes a class hard to master? Well would be many things but the main one that affects Ni is the risk value. How risky is it to play a class like Warden on Rag vs playing a class like Zwei? I think most if not all people would agree on this. Ranged classes can do both jobs as you can play like a melee class with a ranged weapon. Zwei can't play as safe as Warden but Warden can be just about as aggressive as Zwei.
In most meta idea’s melee weapons can't really make ranged weapons obsolete given they will always have more range, however… The meta now is ranged classes have and had made melee classes obsolete. 1 way makes the other obsolete and the other just means 1 group of classes clearly better in a certain scenario.
The one thing melee classes have In terms of damage atm Is speed. Having more speed Is great when you can already 1-2 shot the bot but there is a point of diminishing return…. My upgraded Pride, for example, is really nice for normal and some hard bots but when you need to hit a bot 4-7 times It gives more of a reason not to play that class.
If you can't kill a bot fast enough It has a bigger chance hitting you, in turn, possibly killing you. If you are a melee class you have a lot fewer places to hide when things go wrong when playing your role. A shield can only help 50% of you and that's if your class has a shield. Ranged can always go back even more or just move a few steps left or right to be behind cover. Ranged classes become better because they are just more consistent damage while being just as rewarding at times. The risk of playing a melee class is simply not worth it in a lot of cases even more so rag. From that classes with no ranged skill In my mind would be considered the hardest classes to master In this meta of upgraded Def not lasting 5secs on some waves.
The meta now is… Ranged classes have and had made a lot of melee classes obsolete. So I simply ask to think of a meta where melee does higher damage per second than ranged. That was very vague but I'm asking for you to think of a meta that classes like Zwei can out damage Mp given he lands the hits and doesn't get killed. Zwei can't make Mp obsolete but Mp can to Zwei. Obviously I'm not talking about the extreme here as then yes no shit.
It would be interesting to see how long It takes for each class to kill Prince and Odin. I would guess melee players would have the advantage on Prince but for Odin, I think It would be a lot closer. It's not the best test given I don't need to explain how risky fighting Odin or Prince In melee Is but It would show maybe some outlines on what could change. Heroes can be made for one thing as I expect “dead shot” to just win on Odin but this thread is talking about the meta. Should it be a clear winner and who should come after it? Should It be other ranged classes or melee classes? ...In before Hoplite takes the gold over Cm lol.
To summarize one of the biggest problems I think Ni has would be flight speed or reach in general. I find It's not balanced at a hero and a class level as hopefully, you understand now. I will be talking more than just “ranged vs melee” now. I should have said this soon but this is coming from someone that plays with 200-400 ping. I could be completely wrong on some topics here so please show objectivity when making a post as It's possible I could have the opposite experience. Working with that much ping classes can and do stand out to be clearly to be better than others. Sniper, In general, is a joke compared to xbow on rag but I still have a lot of time on all my heroes on Au servers so forcefully I'm not that out of touch.
As of right now my Rups/Daggers feel comparable In most cases to Tempest with Zephyr (don't have Typhoon). Both have things they do better sure but I can't clearly say bows make up for having less armour and a lot less skill In melee. The only thing In my eyes Sniper has on Pikeman is the flight speed and the normal speed however we have throwing spears In most cases that have more than enough flight speed and at times having less flight speed can help with getting over cades… On that topic, Daggers are just faster than bows making them almost clearly better at times… Overall what benefits does Warden/Sniper have over Mp/Pikeman on real maps and real gameplay?
If Sniper and Pikeman had the same armour values would Sniper be considered Op? I don't think so. It is close atm with Efs being at 58 and Lev at 54 so It wouldn't be a big change. Altho no idea why Leather Overmail Is 70 and G Bear is 64. Should Ranger and Halb have the same armour values? Possibly?
If you don't want them to have the same armour values I think I like the Idea Sniper just is better at ranged but is more of a glass cannon given It already is that. It is possible throwing spears could have more damage and daggers could be faster the Bows. Bows could be a midpoint but they should be almost clearly better give they will have no apparent downside. I don't want bows making throwing obsolete. I want throwing to be clearly better at one thing but bows to be an all rounder that's almost clearly better. I would think Tempest/Typhoon would just be better than both Rups and Daggers for It being 2 Items and not 1 (+Zephyr).
If you do compare the other 2 classes Inf and Xbow… How much of a benefit do you get In other areas If Infantry range maxes out at 166? Mind you that's a crafted 2h... best red would be Dur at 134 or whatever. Compare this with the Xbow theoretical range when using an Eagle xbow would be In the 10000s… So having the ability to put yourself behind cover and still do big damage Is a massive reason not to pick any pure melee class atm. For taking away so much range we get ok melee skill which in a lot of cases can't out damage xbow on higher armoured bots… Inf did get basic shield skill and better armour but those are basic tools required for such a trade of having no ranged skill. We got the risk but was the reward worth It? I don't think so.
For how good the main 4 classes should be well I think xbow is in a good place. It has clear advantages over the other 3 classes and still has negative stuff like it being slow and not good at melee. I think pikeman would be close however part of me thinks it's polearm skill is possible to good at least on Mp.
I can't see any good reason for why Sniper at a basic level has to be the class with the lowest armour in its current form. There are inherent benefits to picking Pikeman over Sniper that being...
-Spears can penetrate shields
-More armour
-Better melee skill
-Being able to jump/move while throwing (well)
-Being able to have more different types of items on you
-A bigger range of weapons to pick from in ranged and melee
What does Sniper really have other than a bit more ranged? I guess you could say ammo but that isn't a short term benefit when you can just refill at no cost on pikeman. I guess you also have accuracy but Is not much of a positive when daggers are just about pinpoint and spears and almost as good. I would buff sniper in general to have the same armour value as a pikeman. The argument for bows having better flight speed can make up for pikeman having good melee skill and more armour but in practice, none uses that extra range on most maps and If you do It's not that big of a jump. Either buff the armour or melee or make it more of a glass cannon in general.
Inf is very hard to balance however I ask you to think broadly.
It either needs to...
(A) Be more consistent In terms of how risky it currently is to play commando in rag/hard/and even on normal.
or
(B) Have the possibility to out damage any class on any mode but in turn, has the greatest risk which it has already.
I'm not sure what's the best option for inf in general as It could simply be a mix of both A and B but Zwei, Leg would be (B) and Jugg, RG would be (A) at least In terms of heroes.
To start, how do you balance items? This question seems straightforward however I want to get to the root of the question who do you balance around. Surprisingly I've seen many different answers to this question over the years. The answer for a competitive game is you balance around the best players (mostly). I would think Ni can be played to the point we know when we see a "pro" vs a "noob". You balance around pro because they know how to break the game but you need to still make some compromises to noobs because most people are not pros. I think heroes/classes should work the same way.
Should classes be balanced around how easy they are to use? To answer this question using my opinion It would be. The hardest classes to master In my eyes should be “the best classes”. Most people will be better off with an easier to use class but It gives a goal In player skill people can work towards If they want.
So on that topic what makes a class hard to master? Well would be many things but the main one that affects Ni is the risk value. How risky is it to play a class like Warden on Rag vs playing a class like Zwei? I think most if not all people would agree on this. Ranged classes can do both jobs as you can play like a melee class with a ranged weapon. Zwei can't play as safe as Warden but Warden can be just about as aggressive as Zwei.
In most meta idea’s melee weapons can't really make ranged weapons obsolete given they will always have more range, however… The meta now is ranged classes have and had made melee classes obsolete. 1 way makes the other obsolete and the other just means 1 group of classes clearly better in a certain scenario.
The one thing melee classes have In terms of damage atm Is speed. Having more speed Is great when you can already 1-2 shot the bot but there is a point of diminishing return…. My upgraded Pride, for example, is really nice for normal and some hard bots but when you need to hit a bot 4-7 times It gives more of a reason not to play that class.
If you can't kill a bot fast enough It has a bigger chance hitting you, in turn, possibly killing you. If you are a melee class you have a lot fewer places to hide when things go wrong when playing your role. A shield can only help 50% of you and that's if your class has a shield. Ranged can always go back even more or just move a few steps left or right to be behind cover. Ranged classes become better because they are just more consistent damage while being just as rewarding at times. The risk of playing a melee class is simply not worth it in a lot of cases even more so rag. From that classes with no ranged skill In my mind would be considered the hardest classes to master In this meta of upgraded Def not lasting 5secs on some waves.
The meta now is… Ranged classes have and had made a lot of melee classes obsolete. So I simply ask to think of a meta where melee does higher damage per second than ranged. That was very vague but I'm asking for you to think of a meta that classes like Zwei can out damage Mp given he lands the hits and doesn't get killed. Zwei can't make Mp obsolete but Mp can to Zwei. Obviously I'm not talking about the extreme here as then yes no shit.
It would be interesting to see how long It takes for each class to kill Prince and Odin. I would guess melee players would have the advantage on Prince but for Odin, I think It would be a lot closer. It's not the best test given I don't need to explain how risky fighting Odin or Prince In melee Is but It would show maybe some outlines on what could change. Heroes can be made for one thing as I expect “dead shot” to just win on Odin but this thread is talking about the meta. Should it be a clear winner and who should come after it? Should It be other ranged classes or melee classes? ...In before Hoplite takes the gold over Cm lol.
To summarize one of the biggest problems I think Ni has would be flight speed or reach in general. I find It's not balanced at a hero and a class level as hopefully, you understand now. I will be talking more than just “ranged vs melee” now. I should have said this soon but this is coming from someone that plays with 200-400 ping. I could be completely wrong on some topics here so please show objectivity when making a post as It's possible I could have the opposite experience. Working with that much ping classes can and do stand out to be clearly to be better than others. Sniper, In general, is a joke compared to xbow on rag but I still have a lot of time on all my heroes on Au servers so forcefully I'm not that out of touch.
As of right now my Rups/Daggers feel comparable In most cases to Tempest with Zephyr (don't have Typhoon). Both have things they do better sure but I can't clearly say bows make up for having less armour and a lot less skill In melee. The only thing In my eyes Sniper has on Pikeman is the flight speed and the normal speed however we have throwing spears In most cases that have more than enough flight speed and at times having less flight speed can help with getting over cades… On that topic, Daggers are just faster than bows making them almost clearly better at times… Overall what benefits does Warden/Sniper have over Mp/Pikeman on real maps and real gameplay?
If Sniper and Pikeman had the same armour values would Sniper be considered Op? I don't think so. It is close atm with Efs being at 58 and Lev at 54 so It wouldn't be a big change. Altho no idea why Leather Overmail Is 70 and G Bear is 64. Should Ranger and Halb have the same armour values? Possibly?
If you don't want them to have the same armour values I think I like the Idea Sniper just is better at ranged but is more of a glass cannon given It already is that. It is possible throwing spears could have more damage and daggers could be faster the Bows. Bows could be a midpoint but they should be almost clearly better give they will have no apparent downside. I don't want bows making throwing obsolete. I want throwing to be clearly better at one thing but bows to be an all rounder that's almost clearly better. I would think Tempest/Typhoon would just be better than both Rups and Daggers for It being 2 Items and not 1 (+Zephyr).
If you do compare the other 2 classes Inf and Xbow… How much of a benefit do you get In other areas If Infantry range maxes out at 166? Mind you that's a crafted 2h... best red would be Dur at 134 or whatever. Compare this with the Xbow theoretical range when using an Eagle xbow would be In the 10000s… So having the ability to put yourself behind cover and still do big damage Is a massive reason not to pick any pure melee class atm. For taking away so much range we get ok melee skill which in a lot of cases can't out damage xbow on higher armoured bots… Inf did get basic shield skill and better armour but those are basic tools required for such a trade of having no ranged skill. We got the risk but was the reward worth It? I don't think so.
For how good the main 4 classes should be well I think xbow is in a good place. It has clear advantages over the other 3 classes and still has negative stuff like it being slow and not good at melee. I think pikeman would be close however part of me thinks it's polearm skill is possible to good at least on Mp.
I can't see any good reason for why Sniper at a basic level has to be the class with the lowest armour in its current form. There are inherent benefits to picking Pikeman over Sniper that being...
-Spears can penetrate shields
-More armour
-Better melee skill
-Being able to jump/move while throwing (well)
-Being able to have more different types of items on you
-A bigger range of weapons to pick from in ranged and melee
What does Sniper really have other than a bit more ranged? I guess you could say ammo but that isn't a short term benefit when you can just refill at no cost on pikeman. I guess you also have accuracy but Is not much of a positive when daggers are just about pinpoint and spears and almost as good. I would buff sniper in general to have the same armour value as a pikeman. The argument for bows having better flight speed can make up for pikeman having good melee skill and more armour but in practice, none uses that extra range on most maps and If you do It's not that big of a jump. Either buff the armour or melee or make it more of a glass cannon in general.
Inf is very hard to balance however I ask you to think broadly.
It either needs to...
(A) Be more consistent In terms of how risky it currently is to play commando in rag/hard/and even on normal.
or
(B) Have the possibility to out damage any class on any mode but in turn, has the greatest risk which it has already.
I'm not sure what's the best option for inf in general as It could simply be a mix of both A and B but Zwei, Leg would be (B) and Jugg, RG would be (A) at least In terms of heroes.