Legionnaire Shielding Skill

[Winter]

Certain weapons, mainly axes and axe-like weapons, ignore this value when dealing damage.

I should mention that Harlaus disagreed and stated it is done a different way, and all over the internet it says different things about what Bonus Against Shields really does.  However, that isn't really relevant to this discussion at all in any way, shape or form and is just you saying your Resilience breaks too easily compared to other shields.  This is already being looked at by the stat workers, I'm sure.  This really has nothing to do with the argument and just adds chaos to the thread, as people will argue what Bonus Against Shield does, state their own personal stories about how good or bad their shields are, and so on and so forth.  If you want to follow that line of argument, there is a topic here for that: http://forum.nordinvasion.com/index.php?...832.0.html  The question is "Should Legionnaire get a boost to shielding skill?"  Personal anecdotes about one's shield breaking or arguments about what shield is better do not add to that.  Anyone can say their shield broke on any wave, that means nothing and can be attributed to any number of factors.  Look at the numbers and base your logic off of that.

I just want this to follow a logical and clear path, as that is the easiest way to actually get things done, and the Legionnaire *definitely* needs something done.

[synario]

Being an active legionnaire myself, I'd like to add my 2-cents while taking up as little of your people's time as possible:

-legionnaire should not get a shielding boost, for reasons already given by susanoo, etc.

-Legionnaire does need a buff, still:
-giving legionnaires an extra athletics point, while nice, would not be logically justifiable. A legionarrie shouldn't be as fast and nimble as a hero archer.
-giving the legionnaire an 40/50 pt buff to throwing skill would be both justifiable and not OP.
-making a special light armor would be a justifiable and fair buff to the class. However, it would require far more effort than simply giving the legionnaire a stat boost. In addition, giving the legionnaire light armor and a throwing buff would be OP/unbalanced and even if it was it allowed to happen, it would only result in other commando heroes demanding a buff as well.

I would only recommend we take the light armor route (as an alternative to the throwing buff) if somebody had already designed a decent armor for the legionnaire to wear. As far as I know, nobody has, so I firmly recommend that the legionnaire be given a throwing buff, without touching power throw.

[Aigle]

The idea of a lighter armour and an additionnal athlectic point is an interesting idea. A Legionnaire is meant to be mobile. This kind of buff will increase its movement's speed and will gain even more speed in combat which will make it more effective. Although, the main issue with this is that it doesn't really stick with the actual gameplay in higher waves of hard and ragnarok.

[Harlaus]

As Winter said, the legionnaire does need something done. As Aigle noted, increasing athletics is not really so important, most actual gameplay involves little movement compared to the large times you spend standing still or moving only slightly, in those occasions speed doesn't really matter. Legionnaires who want their class to be competitive should note this, and instead aim for combat boosts rather than gimmicks like speed. I won't bother addressing Legionnaires who believe their class is equally powerful and just misused.

Legionnaire is a commando focused Pikeman, it just does really poorly at it. In most situations a Pikeman would do equal or better than a legionnaire. I don't think this was intentional but it's the ultimate outcome of making two classes designed to be hybrids of Slashing and Ranged(throwing). A pikeman will do better at slashing and throwing. The only advantage a legionnaire would have is speed and speed is a gimmick when you barely have to move and almost never will that movement be time critical.


The other major issue is the purpose of the class. Let's be honest, all of the classes that excel in one handed weapons are absolute garbage and inferior in every scenario to their counterparts. A Sniper would always benefit from more PD than having a stronger side arm, a Crossbowman would almost always benefit from the Accuracy bonus and additional of Chosen marksmen. The fact legionnaire's haven't caught on is a bit disturbing. Do you often go and kite/1hand waves? Probably not, you're probably comfy behind the shieldwall slashing or throwing and scoring two or three kills when you run out at the end, nothing substantial to benefit from.  All vulgar complaints can be sent in PM, I know at least one of you got offended by that.

That's the primary issue, there is no simple stat fix. Here's what I would suggest.
Give it access to Dragon Halberd, Thunder Pike, Swadian Halberd, Snake Weapons
- Normally this would be useless as the proficiencies dictate they will get damage and speed malus'. This is the fun part. Assign a duplicate of the DH and TP to be one handed weapons, so they benefit greatly from the legionnaires weapon focus, this would mean we don't have to make the Legionnaire proficient in polearms to merely benefit for five weapons, and most of you would never go for it. Well, you probably won't go for this either. The Swadian Halberd and Snake weapons would be duplicated to be two handed weapons. 
- Why do this? I agree it won't make much sense at first. This is for two reasons. The first is one handed weapons are an absolute joke, and the second is those five weapons are also jokes, though in a different way. This would make those weapons better, would be a substantial boost for the DH and TP, and would set these weapons apart from others thanks to hybrid classing, so their arguably inferior or arguably balanced stats can be made up for.
- The only counter I can think of is that it'd be dumb or legionnaire needs its own area to excel. That's fine, and when anyone can think of that area, and that area actually makes the class good, you can propose that instead. This is a somewhat more unique method to improve a set of weapons and a class at the same time, it'd also make legionnaire more attractive to those who already have a pikeman and want to trade speed and throwing damage for higher armor.

*slight edit*
You might want to buff the throwing prof to 200 as well, that's probably a good idea, a lot of people seem to think so at least.

[Sargent Q]

I do spend some time soloing on my legionnaire.  Before I got my master peltest upgraded to hero class I would regularly go kill up to assassins alone, then it got to annoying to move the VHTA's between characters.  I also would go kite with NKA as my pikeman at the time could not bring in a barrel.

[Tsukiyomi]

I also can typically solo to/past assassins on legionnaire.  I also end up in the top 3 positions of hard and rag games next to experienced zweihanders.  So yes, I am one of those people who thinks that the class is good and most people don't understand how to use them.  Also, as for 1h weapons being a joke, with 240 1h and 57c (could use 60 or really any other number if you can handle that better), you will put out higher dps than a zweihander (225 2h) with an equal damage weapon.  "But oooh I can't reach with 1h weapons they are sooo bad!" you might say.  Well get out of the cades and get some skill in melee.  You will get plenty of kills if you have some ability.  Maybe legionnaire is only for players who are actually skilled?  I'm not too sure on that yet but with people convinced it's such a bad class, I'm a bit unsure as to how I get so many kills, shield effectively, and help teams win. 

As a note to anyone who thinks 1h skill and weapons are "garbage,"  have you ever heard of a moving shield wall?  It is a pretty common tactic in hard/rag runs and the ability to properly use 1h weapons and put out damage with them is very important. 

Polearms?  No thanks.  If I wanted to use those I would have made a skirmisher. 

Only things I can see that are both quick and needed:
Increase 1h skill to make it leaps and bounds ahead of other commandos; perhaps 260'ish

or

Buff throwing skill so that it is possible to use the throwing effectively.  200'ish throwing with 6 power throw would put legionnaires in a position where they are not as good at throwing as a skirmisher but are still able to effectively use the ability as it seems to be intended - to break shields, weaken enemies, and perhaps kill a few before engaging in melee where the 1h skill allows you to quickly dispatch the rest. 

Not trying to beat a dead horse here but I see no reason why either one of these options could not be implemented.  Every person ( especially those who don't/haven't played as the class  :-\ ) seems to agree that legionnaire needs something to balance it a bit better with the others. 

[madjsoh]

from what i have gathered from people who actually use the class (i don't use it i am just going off my personal knowledge on what makes an NI class more useful) it would seem that legionnaires would prefer a 1h wep prof increase over the shield skill. i've thought about this and remembered back to the days when i actually used my royal guard. if you remember the waves such as valks, jotnes, juggernaughts all these troops had crushthrough. the solution to countering the said crushthrough was indeed spam or slashshielding as it is called and frowned upon these days. while the legionaire should not HAVE to shield. in the event it does do so, an increase in 1h WP could indeed make it a worthy slash-shielder class. not only would this provide relief to the shields (which may or may not be weak given the contrasts in this thread) but it also correlates more closely to the IRL legionaire who would throw a small stack of weapons (pilum) to weigh down or damage a shield to the point of it being useless. by removing the enemy's shields the legionnaires could then effectively combo hit the enemy with a series of block stab/slash attacks. this could be similarly effective in NI but only if used correctly by experienced players who know when to hold their shield and when to "let it rip" and effectively stun lock the nearest enemies.

[Tsukiyomi]

from what i have gathered from people who actually use the class (i don't use it i am just going off my personal knowledge on what makes an NI class more useful) it would seem that legionnaires would prefer a 1h wep prof increase over the shield skill. i've thought about this and remembered back to the days when i actually used my royal guard. if you remember the waves such as valks, jotnes, juggernaughts all these troops had crushthrough. the solution to countering the said crushthrough was indeed spam or slashshielding as it is called and frowned upon these days. while the legionaire should not HAVE to shield. in the event it does do so, an increase in 1h WP could indeed make it a worthy slash-shielder class. not only would this provide relief to the shields (which may or may not be weak given the contrasts in this thread) but it also correlates more closely to the IRL legionaire who would throw a small stack of weapons (pilum) to weigh down or damage a shield to the point of it being useless. by removing the enemy's shields the legionnaires could then effectively combo hit the enemy with a series of block stab/slash attacks. this could be similarly effective in NI but only if used correctly by experienced players who know when to hold their shield and when to "let it rip" and effectively stun lock the nearest enemies.

^^This^^

[Sosruko]

It sounds to me that most contributing to this topic would be better off playing RG or Zweihander instead of Legionnaire considering the things they are suggesting. Legionnaire is not a class designed for traditional cading but instead a mobile unit with versatility to backup every role. It's up to the player to take the best advantage of this versatility and not to stick with a poor mans RG, Zwei or Skirmisher only.

[Mr.Peso]

Legionnaire seems fine to me as it is. I at least have a lot of fun with VHTA's.
Increasing the shield skill seems shitty to me because that would remove a bit of the Legionnaire's originality.
Instead if buffing, I would buff the Legionnaire's strong, special points, 1H wpf or throwing abilities.
Throwing accuracy really is a bit lackluster, same is the difference in 1H WPF in comparison to a RG or Zweih.