Ragnarok requirement level

[madjsoh]

p.s. more loot is the solution to all!!!!!!!!!!!!

Sorry, but I don't see how more drops would solve anything. All it would do is decrease the amount of time required for creating new stuff, and increasing the chance of getting a legendary. How does that fix the matter at hand, that people without proper gear are in ragnarok? I might be taking your point overly serious, but I'm not entirely sure if you're joking or not.

I have said all I have to say, I think, on this topic= so I won't be adding more (for now ). It's good to see, in my opinion, that all arguments are being put together here!

well, since you haven't pieced the puzzle together I'll do it for you... if people get more loot then they are able to afford the proper gear for ragnarok mode. furthermore, players won't have a reason to be as butt-hurt about people looting mats because they'll be looting them as-well hopefully (rather than them seeing the 3-6 green drops on rag going to these "leechers"). then because they arent so fixated on hating the players for looting these drops when they aren't contributing as much as the others then they might be willing to teach them the ropes. but let's not stop there, it would also bring a lot of players back into the mod. if you remember the NI anniversary last year, then you would also remember the influx of old players it brought back (what was the reward?...extra drop chances). more loot is good for the community just take a look at the complaints on how long it takes to craft a tome above...i think i rest my case.

p.s.i also made it very clear that to increase green drops is not to increase legendary item drops there is a very distinct difference between the two

[Spirit]

By definition of others joining the server, we are not controlling the spots on the server nor manipulating it in any way. All we do is try again, which wouldn't be necessary if it was true circumvention or manipulation. If you want to relegate us to a fixed number of events per period of time, then you are stifling impromptu playing. At this stage of the game, can't we just play with the e-friends we enjoy spending leisure time with?

I don't know whether to laugh or cry.  "all we do is try again".... If you can't see that this in itself is circumventing the nature of a Public server, then there is nothing more I can say.

I do not relegate you to a fixed number of events per period of time, the NI Devs and Sr Admins do that in the rules that they have established... 2 official events per week per house with at least 5 members of said house in active attendance at said event.

Again.... I don't want to discourage impromptu play.  I am trying to encourage fair impromptu play.  I am not in any way saying that you cannot play with your friends.  What I am saying is that if you want to play with your friends and ONLY your friends, then do that during official events.  If you want impromptu play on a PUBLIC server, then you MUST be tolerant and accepting of any other player that joins the server, providing they also adhere to the rules and guidelines of fair and courteous play.

As long as any group of people is working actively to exclude others, then feelings will be hurt and there will be strife in the community.

• [li][quote author=Spirit link=topic=23179.msg166374#msg166374 date=1392672683]Your analogy is off.  You don't pay the Janitors. Your employer does. But since you raise it, let me add to it...

You're right, I don't, and they already get their wages (assist XP and gold). I was implying giving them additional pay on top of that.[/quote]

You never have and never will pay the Janitors.  Our employer [NI] already does that.  All the janitor wants is for you to allow them the opportunity to have a job. 

If you have an issue with how the employer rewards its employees, take that up with your employer in a constructive fashion.  Denying the janitor the opportunity to work is just misdirected anger and is only causing more problems than it solves.  [ after all.. are YOU going to clean the toilets?!?  ]

#< not discussing the reports. Kip has already made his post on that thread >#

• [li][quote author=Spirit link=topic=23179.msg166289#msg166289 date=1392633282]In regards to INDIVIDUAL players leaving a server to avoid confrontation, then yes.. it is absolutely a good thing to do.  However, if an entire group of people intentionally manipulate the servers to monopolize them to the exclusion of everyone but their select few, then that should not be allowed.

This does not create a monopoly on the servers. There are four public Ragnarok servers, and no time when 64-68 concurrent players are playing Ragnarok. If you are trying to say that everyone must only play with other players, then there is no precedent for that. Just because one or more player leaves a server does not mean the remaining cannot stay and play.
[/quote]

I absolutely agree.  There are four Ragnarok servers.  I don't think I have ever seen more than two concurrent public runs at any given time.  There is usually just one, if any.  If you can't see that your actions of "server bombing" {thanks for providing the name for this activity =P } is creating a monopoly of THAT server and denying a fair opportunity to other players who just want a chance to also play the game, then there is again nothing more I can say.

In your last statement, you are pretty vague.. "one or more".  Sure, if one, two, three, maybe even four players all leave at once, then the spots will fill up again and the run can continue.  But what we are talking about is eight, ten, twelve, or even fifteen people all leaving the server at once.  Do you really expect a run that gets fragmented like that to be able to continue? Seriously?  Especially given the fact that I have witnessed you leaving a server... picking up your tome, putting it in inventory and making sure not to leave it for the benefit of the stranded players.  Yes, it is your tome and you have the right to do with it as you please... but really?


######

I have said what I am trying to convey to you in what I hope has been clear and logical arguments.  If I have been unable to sway your opinion, then we will just have to agree to disagree.  I have nothing against you personally and have in fact enjoyed the runs we have done together in the past.. long before you left the NI TeamSpeak and the situation boiled up to where it is now.  I do sincerely hope that you consider my arguments with an open mind and that the upcoming loot changes do in fact help to alleviate the schism currently  existing in the NI community.

[Malong]

[quote author=Malong link=topic=23179.msg166379#msg166379 date=1392675915]
By definition of others joining the server, we are not controlling the spots on the server nor manipulating it in any way. All we do is try again, which wouldn't be necessary if it was true circumvention or manipulation. If you want to relegate us to a fixed number of events per period of time, then you are stifling impromptu playing. At this stage of the game, can't we just play with the e-friends we enjoy spending leisure time with?

I don't know whether to laugh or cry.  "all we do is try again".... If you can't see that this in itself is circumventing the nature of a Public server, then there is nothing more I can say.[/quote]
There are times people give up, so repeated attempts do not guarantee eventual success. It does not circumvent the nature of a public server: the act of coordinating server joining never actually changes the nature (or properties) of the public server we join, in that it still has no password, we still can't ask the map be changed without reason, and so on.

Again.... I don't want to discourage impromptu play.  I am trying to encourage fair impromptu play.  I am not in any way saying that you cannot play with your friends.  What I am saying is that if you want to play with your friends and ONLY your friends, then do that during official events.  If you want impromptu play on a PUBLIC server, then you MUST be tolerant and accepting of any other player that joins the server, providing they also adhere to the rules and guidelines of fair and courteous play.

Please define "fair impromptu play." What is "unfair" about not being able to play with one segment of the population? To reiterate, we've been told that we don't have to get along with others, that there are plenty of other servers, and that nobody is forcing us to stay in a server if it will make us unhappy, or lead to arguments. But, for the record, we give plenty of people chances, as I stated previously: "that list [of players that will just make us leave] is quite small."

You never have and never will pay the Janitors.  Our employer [NI] already does that.  All the janitor wants is for you to allow them the opportunity to have a job. 

We do not deny them any opportunity to have a job (or play, in this analogy). There are plenty of other servers where they can "work," and more than half are "hiring" (empty).

[ after all.. are YOU going to clean the toilets?!?  ]

If cleaning the toilets in NI equates to mindlessly slashing with others' weapons, shooting the shield wall, juggling, healing, and all the other roles that can be done by other players, then yes, we perform those roles in the absence of "janitors." But while on this topic= the "janitors" seem to clean the toilets unsatisfactorily anyway leaving overflowed poop everywhere (peeking and dying early in waves, tomes despawning, people dying due to lack of heals, and so on).

If you can't see that your actions of "server bombing" {thanks for providing the name for this activity =P } is creating a monopoly of THAT server and denying a fair opportunity to other players who just want a chance to also play the game, then there is again nothing more I can say.

Rhetorical question: what is a "fair opportunity?" Because, as you acknowledge, with only one or two concurrent populated Ragnarok servers, there will still be two other empty ones. The real question is "what is the difference between a public server with 'the group' and an empty public server?" and the answer is only "the people populating the server." Is it really unfair that people are being excluded from "the group?" Is there any right or privilege granted to everyone that plays NI to be able to play with any group of players? Of course not.

Since you brought up EQ (which I only played with borrowed accounts), this cannot be the first time you've seen this behavior. There are definitely closed cliques/guilds/premades camping open world (i.e. public) bosses and competing over them? You must have witnessed this.

In your last statement, you are pretty vague.. "one or more".  Sure, if one, two, three, maybe even four players all leave at once, then the spots will fill up again and the run can continue.  But what we are talking about is eight, ten, twelve, or even fifteen people all leaving the server at once.  Do you really expect a run that gets fragmented like that to be able to continue? Seriously?

Look at the inciting incident that started this argument. It's six players. Those six left, and the server emptied out anyway. Were the other ten fragmented and incapable of staying and continuing? Seriously?

Especially given the fact that I have witnessed you leaving a server... picking up your tome, putting it in inventory and making sure not to leave it for the benefit of the stranded players.  Yes, it is your tome and you have the right to do with it as you please... but really?

I changed to spectator at the indirect request of players in the game. But since you bring up this somewhat tangential argument, I have to again point out that this behavior should not be new to you. You know someone who is known for not dying for support items unless begged (despite the obvious mass suicides when toming), drop their weapons for others when they do not have the prime slashing spot, has destroyed platforms when others use them, and so on.

I have said what I am trying to convey to you in what I hope has been clear and logical arguments.  If I have been unable to sway your opinion, then we will just have to agree to disagree.  I have nothing against you personally and have in fact enjoyed the runs we have done together in the past.. long before you left the NI TeamSpeak and the situation boiled up to where it is now.  I do sincerely hope that you consider my arguments with an open mind and that the upcoming loot changes do in fact help to alleviate the schism currently  existing in the NI community.

Probably not, and I definitely appreciate the discussion. For me, it's that the argument always leads to "my group" making every concession, with not even a compromise or attempt to understand our point of view. On the issue of TS, our hand was forced: a rule was broken, a member was banned somewhat on a technicality, so we had to use a different TS server. We understand that the unintended and unforeseen consequence has led to players not being able to see when we gather and prepare for a Ragnarok run. This itself has caused players outside "my group" to have a much more difficult time in joining public Ragnarok runs. Yet no one addresses that.

[Winter]

You know someone who is known for not dying for support items unless begged (despite the obvious mass suicides when toming), drop their weapons for others when they do not have the prime slashing spot, has destroyed platforms when others use them, and so on.

I would appreciate it if you stopped bringing me up as a method to try to hurt Spirit.  Anything I do he has an issue with, he has already talked to me about personally.  You do not need to keep bringing it up to deflect.  To continue, your statements are way out of line.  Every time I am in a public run I drop my shields and tomes, unless there are already several tome bringers, last is killed, or another similar circumstance.  Sometimes, for events, I will not drop tomes unless asked, and every so often I have indeed made fun with the event leader, making joking requests of them having to pay me shade ore - such payments having been done only once by a friend, even after being told the request was a joke.  I do not usually drop my weapons to people I do not know for a plethora of reasons that I do not need to cite here.  Furthermore, the  main problem with your suicide with the tome was that you were using it as a hostage to allow you to leach your way through the server, sitting in the base just with your tome on you and letting everyone else kill Nords and shield for you.  Just about every time the "platform destroying" happened was in an event as a joke.  The time I believe you are citing was a mistake on my part and I have already apologized to the other participant. 

As an edit, I suppose I should say that unlike you, I can accept when I am wrong and apologize, rather than try to cite others of doing the same or being worse to justify my actions.

[Malong]

[quote author=Malong link=topic=23179.msg166480#msg166480 date=1392742735]
You know someone who is known for not dying for support items unless begged (despite the obvious mass suicides when toming), drop their weapons for others when they do not have the prime slashing spot, has destroyed platforms when others use them, and so on.

I would appreciate it if you stopped bringing me up as a method to try to hurt Spirit.[/quote]
I left your name out of it and it is in no way a deflection. It is just a big double standard to mention the single time I went to spectator with my tomes but not mention the recurring past history of others and similar behavior. Again, I apologize, its intention is to bring light to the fact that this behavior is not solely from "my group," and if you dislike the behavior, then one should object to that behavior regardless of the perpetrator. Therefore I pointed out similar (and same) behaviors of others which, for some reason, have not been discussed as bad.

But for the record, I have defended you repeatedly to detractors saying that you have dropped items for people you are helping level, voluntarily died for support items, and so on. Many people can attest to this if you just ask them. You should know I have no problem with you or your behavior, have agreed with your course of action, and have always informed you of runs, never denying you entry to events, informing you that you can play whichever class with whichever support items, and so on.

Furthermore, the  main problem with your suicide with the tome was that you were using it as a hostage to allow you to leach your way through the server, sitting in the base just with your tome on you and letting everyone else kill Nords and shield for you.

To clear the air, this was Hidden Cave on Normal mode and the barricade wall was the bottom floor archway. A one-shielder gap was created, with two slashing spots taken, while I was playing Commando. I was only in that server because I received two Steam messages from friends asking if I could join with my Tome. That would be an incredibly inefficient way of leeching, being 50-52 with T4 support on Normal mode. I was asked to not solely benefit from my presence holding a tome in my hand. I swapped to spectator and typed something like "now I'm not gaining anything and you should have no objection."

As an edit, I suppose I should say that unlike you, I can accept when I am wrong and apologize, rather than try to cite others of doing the same or being worse to justify my actions.

Not at all. My point is that the behavior is undesirable when certain people are the culprits, but it's perfectly fine when others do it. If people are going to attach negative connotations to behaviors of "my group" then I will gladly cite similar and same incidents from "their group" and point out the borderline hypocrisy. Or is it only bad when "my group" does this? But while we're on the subject of that incident and being "wrong," we had a Steam conversation directly afterwards. It went something like this:

Malong: I know I'm an asshole.
Winter: At least you're a funny asshole with a sense of justice .

[-Perception-]

This is where the topic is:		This is where you currently are:
x		o

To give you a hint: "Ragnarok requirement level"
Even though it was amusing to scroll through your little feud, maybe you should restrict the personal stuff to PM's/IRC/TS/etc.

Ultimately I can only add, after reading all the ******** some of you have wrote here, I would say leave the level requirement the way it currently is, or else the gap that recently appeared in the NI community will not only persist, but grow even larger than it currently is.

[Suns]

This is where the topic is:		This is where you currently are:
x		o

To give you a hint: "Ragnarok requirement level"
Even though it was amusing to scroll through your little feud, maybe you should restrict the personal stuff to PM's/IRC/TS/etc.

Ultimately I can only add, after reading all the ******** some of you have wrote here, I would say leave the level requirement the way it currently is, or else the gap that recently appeared in the NI community will not only persist, but grow even larger than it currently is.

^^ Exactly.

[Spirit]

Holy thread hijack Batman!!

... now back to the bat channel....

I am going to chime in here and say that I agree that a min level 50 for Ragnarok would not be unreasonable.  If there is suppose to be a progression and there is already a level 39 limit on Hard mode, then a level 50 AND tier 4 support for Ragnarok would be in line with that progression.  It would also allow the players to get more experience in the style of play AND the support items necessary to win at Ragnarok.

AND

Malong: I know I'm an asshole.

^totally in jest, not serious at all

'nuff said  :-X


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[ Topic: Ragnarok requirement level  (Read 830 times) ] sorry to all those readers for going off topic.....

[madjsoh]

This is where the topic is:		This is where you currently are:
x		o

To give you a hint: "Ragnarok requirement level"
Even though it was amusing to scroll through your little feud, maybe you should restrict the personal stuff to PM's/IRC/TS/etc.

Ultimately I can only add, after reading all the ******** some of you have wrote here, I would say leave the level requirement the way it currently is, or else the gap that recently appeared in the NI community will not only persist, but grow even larger than it currently is.

this thread was created because of the gap in the community which has come around due to ragnarok, what you are suggesting here is that doing nothing is the solution to the problem at hand, which is completely counter-productive to what people are trying to achieve in this thread. the only ****** i have read here is what i have quoted above.

[Mythik]

This might be completely off the debate that has been going on Malong and Spirit in this thread, but as a late comer to NI community in general (unlike my brother Mythil), the comments that will be made below is coming from a person who had to make his own way throughout the obstacles that were against the players that are mentioned in this thread.

However, never mentioned in this thread. This is how much I have with my FPs right now on my main character:

FPTitle: Gladiator
Faction Points: 9141

First of all, I would actually want the FP system to be useful for starters. Maybe instead of the level requirement that has been the general argument here, the FP requirement would actually be useful just besides finding your own house with required 250FPs and put into the use of a requirement to enter both Hard/Ragnarok. I am not the person who should be specifying numbers here, but the FPs requirement would actually be useful in entering both Hard/Ragnarok Mode.

I am not one of the players who had the chance to level up on Ragnarok to level 52. When I joined NI, I had to be really lucky to find a server that someone had a barrel or even a tome(just fyi, if someone did have barrel, the server did have the chance to crash with even placing it). Furthermore, if I were lucky enough find and join a Normal Server that did not wipe on wave 10 (either on Berserkers or on Zweihanders), I would consider myself lucky. Hence it was not easy as it looks right now. Though, in the end, I played for 20 hours straight to actually have a level 51 Archer after 6 days after actually starting NI. But what I did was just due to my freedom of time and understanding the fact that not everyone will not be able to show the ambition and effort. However, after not playing for a year and a half, I consider myself as a late recruit to the people who have been debating on this thread. Therefore, I can relate and understand the situation of the less experienced players who are not known well in the community.

To be honest, I actually read this http://forum.nordinvasion.com/index.php?...804.0.html and this http://forum.nordinvasion.com/index.php?...139.0.html to the every bit of its little detail and actually followed it. Again, I followed exactly every little detail what was mentioned in these posts. In the end, I was in VLKA (I was a Sniper with a war bow/Rough Smallring Leather/War Arrows when I first joined) for a long time and now I am in the House of Tricksters. In the end, I found myself in the best runs that can be ever found in NI since the 0.5.0, Ragnarok Mode was released because I followed the footsteps(not being cocky with the way that I act and neither too stubborn about not accepting my mistakes) of more experienced players in NI.

Furthermore, many of you know my brother Mythil as well. He was the one who has introduced me to this mod. Even though I might be his older brother, he was only 12 years old when he first joined the NI community. Despite his age, he was willing to learn and understand the general concepts of the gameplay in NI. Now, he is almost 15 and regardless of his lack of time to play NI because of his real life obligations at the moment, due to his prior actions and well-observed knowledge throughout his gameplay, he has a well-established status among many players in the community.

Furthermore, besides being in many full server runs, I am a person who has made his wealth out of  both by(mostly) kiting by myself and kiting with my brother, Mythil. Right now, I have 2496 hours spent on M&B Warband(I only played NI). I have never dropped a legendary, nor has my brother. But actually following the footsteps and listened to more experienced players. Which, in the end, actually worked out for me like how Malong also briefly mentions about it here http://forum.nordinvasion.com/index.php?...81.30.html on his post on the thread.

Although I sometimes really prefer playing on my own, I completely understand and always will support the basis of teamplay (if you look here) which I have mentioned in my post that which I still completely support http://forum.nordinvasion.com/index.php?...53.45.html) throughout my experience in NI.

Again, it is not up to me to specify the numbers for both what should be required for Hard and Ragnarok regarding the FPs. However, since there's a span of time with the quests renewal time, and, in my opinion, the FPs would allow the lower levels to go on many runs as possible on both Normal and Hard both indivually and as a team. Again, I am not commenting about the level requirement, that has been going mostly in this thread. But I am simply stating the fact that people who are capable enough to complete a Ragnarok run(without luck) are mostly the players who have gained experienced with the harsh consequences of both Normal and the actual "Hard Mode" in the past. Even though this does not mean any new coming players who are capable enough to join a Ragnarok server are not willing to learn and expand their level of experiences, I can say that I have seen many players that are not a member of the major houses still being able to cope with the general understanding of how to play in throughout my public runs on Ragnarok.

Therefore, in the end, even though it might seem like it is a harsh rule, the FP requirement would allow lower level/less experienced players to gain more experience throughout the gameplay of NI both individually and the teamplay experience until they have achieved to a certain level of FPs. Therefore, preventing them to result in what Click said in his post in Map Vote Change thread http://forum.nordinvasion.com/index.php?...#msg164790. In the end, knowing that the time limits that players might have the lack of time unlike me due to their real-life obligations, coming from a person who had level his characters on mostly Normal mode; the FPs requirement would allow lower level/less experienced players to achieve to a certain level of experience that would allow them to understand the general concept of gameplay and acknowledge the importance of support items(expect Normal Barricades/Simple Medic Boxes/Deployable Shields) for them before they jump on a Ragnarok Server and be actually capable enough of playing on Ragnarok Mode.

I have seen that, besides few lucky exceptions(which I have experienced), without TS communication, and the proper T4 support items brought in, to reach the 20th wave of Ragnarok Mode on a public runs is just a myth/carrying a four leaf clover [who joins to the empty spot in the server/what support item they join in with(barrel or tome)] for many of the players in NI at the moment.

Regards,
Mythik