Application for the return of item left in house trust

[Winter]

To say that a house member would be at fault for not properly recording the ownership details of every item in VLKA and set an example of them instead of the house leadership is in my biased opinion an unfair precedent to set.

The only person anyone has claimed should keep record of every item in VLKA is Woody.  No one has said that any other VLKA member should record ownership details of every item in VLKA, and this is not a precedent anyone has said should be set.  I have only stated that it would be beneficial for people to keep records of their own items and logs of the various loans they make, as well as logs of them informing the recipient of said items that it is indeed a loan and not a donation.  It would make cases like this very simple - the person is aware the item already belongs to someone and is not free to trade, so if the item is sold they can be swiftly dealt with.

The case you brought up has logs of the recipient who later sold the item being expressly informed that the items in the trade are for borrowing, not selling.  In this case, Woody claims to have been unaware that the Durendal belonged to Madjosh when he sold it (I was told that the item was improperly marked in the bank document, so return to Kaasovic's statement that VLKA could use some better record keeping...) and I have seen no evidence to the contrary so far.

I had records of the item purchase, at the time we kept a spreadsheet drafted by Handef (former house leadership) which contained an ownership minded itemisation of the bank items. Because new leadership have been more tardy in their management the house members are to pay?

The former leadership should have taken more care in ensuring the bank records were carefully transferred to someone that would properly maintain them.  This is not something we can punish the new leadership for, as there is no solid evidence that they knew the item belonged to someone prior to selling it and was not free to trade as there are no logs of the former leadership (or anyone, for that matter) informing them.  It is an unfortunate situation, but the correct answer isn't to ban those involved for something that, as far as the evidence indicates, was a mistake committed by multiple parties.

When I left the house, Woody contacted you/reported me to check ownership of items that belonged to me. It goes without saying that he could have easily contacted you again to check where the item he ostensibly believed to have come from thin air actually came from. He did not do this, to the best of my knowledge, he made no attempt to perceive whom the item belonged to.

I believe this to be the nail in the coffin in Woody's defence. 

Had he made just and relevant enquires to where the item came from and discovered nothing, I would stand to say that he had done enough to satisfy any requirement of attempting to locate the relevant owner and I would not be here right now writing this lengthy response.

It is my understanding that there are many items in the VLKA Bank that do not have clearly indicated owners, and I honestly would not expect Woody to request a developer to search the logs to find the owner of each of those items.  He contacted me to trace items that he believed were stolen, not to catalogue VLKA Bank for him.  It is not the role of the developers to keep track of people's donations and loans to each other, that is the responsibility of the players.  As I have stated, the developers are willing to intervene in clear cases because they are generally nice people, but it is unreasonable to expect them to track down the owners of several items loaned or donated with no clear indication as to which to a house by players that, more often than not, will never be coming back.

[[ASSASSINE]]

For the future items without clear owner, shouldnt be traded for any other items.
However, if no logs are available VLKA should compensate josh properly. He made clear it was his durendal and I have never experienced him lying or anything like that. Furthermore, you should morally feel the need to compensate a good house member. If Genf was ever to make a return, it would no question for me to compensate him, if I sold the rupturers he gifted to me.

[Kaasovic]

For the future items without clear owner, shouldnt be traded for any other items.

I guess this really depends on the situation. If an item without an owner can not be traced to it's original owner, does it belong to nobody? If it belongs to nobody, can it simply not be traded? If only VLKA bank had proper administration, this matter would have been solved a whole lot easier.

However, if no logs are available VLKA should compensate josh properly.

Does that mean that if I have no logs of my bank account and the bank has nothing either, I could simply pick up millions of dollars? It would have really helped if Madjosh had some sort of contract setup with the bank where it says that the Durendal, in this case, was never ment to be sold. Compensation has been offered, yet refused by presumably peer pressure by the people in your playershop.

He made clear it was his durendal and I have never experienced him lying or anything like that.

He has made it clear that the Durendal was his, after it got sold. Just because you never experienced him lying doesn't mean it reflects the truth, so these morally argument isn't really valid in a case like this.

Furthermore, you should morally feel the need to compensate a good house member. [...]

This is what winter has told the ownership of VLKA bank to do and a compensation offer has been made.
I personally agree that Madjosh should be compensated, but should not be influenced in the coming to this agreement. The Durendal is gone, so that is out of the question.

[[ASSASSINE]]

I guess this really depends on the situation. If an item without an owner can not be traced to it's original owner, does it belong to nobody? If it belongs to nobody, can it simply not be traded? If only VLKA bank had proper administration, this matter would have been solved a whole lot easier.

If it belongs to nobody, it should not be traded, but instead remain for loans in the bank.

Does that mean that if I have no logs of my bank account and the bank has nothing either, I could simply pick up millions of dollars? It would have really helped if Madjosh had some sort of contract setup with the bank where it says that the Durendal, in this case, was never ment to be sold. Compensation has been offered, yet refused by presumably peer pressure by the people in your playershop.

You cant really compare an NI bank to a real bank. When adding money into a bank, a contract has to be set up. When the loan of the bank fails it still has to repay you with their equity. Furthermore, a bank needs a license and many more important facts (based of BASEL III), which an NI bank doesnt. The most important one is the one I listed above: the liability of equity, which the NI bank fails to have.
I could keep explaining this, but I think you get the idea.

He has made it clear that the Durendal was his, after it got sold. Just because you never experienced him lying doesn't mean it reflects the truth, so these morally argument isn't really valid in a case like this.

 


When going to court, the judge needs to come to a decision based on witness records. Thats why I think it is valid.

This is what winter has told the ownership of VLKA bank to do and a compensation offer has been made.
I personally agree that Madjosh should be compensated, but should not be influenced in the coming to this agreement. The Durendal is gone, so that is out of the question.

Since you compared to a bank, I will do the same. When a loan failed, the bank has to  repay the whole sum + interests. However, since you mentioned, the durendal is gone, I would suggest to properly compensate. This could be done by either buying a durendal and then return the original part of the loan or compensate with something similar to this. I dont know the VLKA armory out of my head, but if they have an AGS, I would think AGS + balance could be fair. I know we all go along by different values for items, so the best is to just purchase a durendal of the market and trade it back.

[Coconut]

It didn't belong to nobody, Here is the google doc from october 2017 right before the Durendal was sold


It clearly said it belonged to the bank. It was like that in the bank since the creation of this google doc in August of 2016 to october 2017... 15 months. I'm not sure who is at fault here, if it is the old administration when they transferred the google doc to Woody and not properly disclosing who owned what. Or perhaps it did belong to VLKA and was gifted to the bank, or gifted to someone and they themselves gifted it to the bank.

Either way... in that entire 15 months that it was in the bank it said "Note Who owns it - Bank" when you hover over it like most items.

We have a public link to the google doc in the VLKA channel in Teamspeak and on woodys thread on the forums it's not hard to find. That entire time of 15 months and no one said like "Hey that Durendal doesn't belong to VLKA maybe I should say something". But nope.

[Malong]

It didn't belong to nobody, Here is the google doc from october 2017 right before the Durendal was sold...

It clearly said it belonged to the bank. It was like that in the bank since the creation of this google doc in August of 2016 to october 2017... 15 months. I'm not sure who is at fault here, if it is the old administration when they transferred the google doc to Woody and not properly disclosing who owned what. Or perhaps it did belong to VLKA and was gifted to the bank, or gifted to someone and they themselves gifted it to the bank.

Either way... in that entire 15 months that it was in the bank it said "Note Who owns it - Bank" when you hover over it like most items.

We have a public link to the google doc in the VLKA channel in Teamspeak and on woodys thread on the forums it's not hard to find. That entire time of 15 months and no one said like "Hey that Durendal doesn't belong to VLKA maybe I should say something". But nope.

Your argument is based on the fact that two people who took a break from the game were not staying current with the game...

Furthermore, you posit that an entirely new record is accurate despite being based on omitted/incomplete information. "We didn't know" is not synonymous with "it didn't happen."

I'll poke Brennanx to respond again.

[Scarecrow]

Okay, thanks to everyone for responding with their thoughts on this issue, helpful or otherwise. The VLKA Bank has reacquired a Durendal and now seek to return it to it's original owner. PCK as I do not have Josh on steam, could you please PM/Steam me your ID so I can send it to you?

Cheers fellas.

[Winter]

Thank you, leadership of VLKA, for sorting this out. Closing this thread as I believe its goal has been met.