First Defence

[Forward]

IMO the map became much worse. And I was talking with many active players and they were agree with me.
I'm not talking about new cading area expansion, it's whatever. But how bots spawn nowadays - it's terrible.

I propose to restore old bot spawns on this map.

Or let's discuss another possible fixes whose I didn't see atm.

[Julia.]

I assume you're talking about kiting? The spawns do not really matter for a regular caded run as far as I know.
The intention of the change was to make less bots stuck in the gatehouse/the area around it.
In general, changing spawns is not a big deal. As i explained why it was changed, I would like to know what the problem is from your point of view so we can find a possible solution for both problems.

[Angar]

I must confess I had enjoyed the old version with the spawn outside more than the new version. As for kiting, both versions are absolutely fine which is why I always prefer kiting on First Defence. Still I do see the point of Forward since the spawn inside makes the safe zone in kites really small. Once you're outside the cading area, ranged enemies have an easy way killing you over the whole yard. It is more uncomfortable I'd say but still not a change that destroyed the map in my opinion. I should probably add that every kiters preference is different. Forward has a completely different way to kite compared to me so obviously our views diverge.

[Forward]

I assume you're talking about kiting? The spawns do not really matter for a regular caded run as far as I know.
The intention of the change was to make less bots stuck in the gatehouse/the area around it.
In general, changing spawns is not a big deal. As i explained why it was changed, I would like to know what the problem is from your point of view so we can find a possible solution for both problems.

Not only about kiting. Even when playing with a small team (where resources (cades) are limited) you often want to kill bots before cades, so on First Defence you often could play first 8 waves just in main gates without any cades at all. Or even cade right in the gates, when your resources and DPS is better. Which was also completely doable and we won many rag runs with such cades too.

About kiting. First Defence was top (in top-4 for sure) kiting map, and one of good Warden kiting maps (maybe even top-1 for warden). Now it's definitely one of the worse, Warden kiting is barely impossible now. Personally I skip it nowadays. And before it was reason to play a run.

So spawns. Bots stuck and such. For me it was never big deal to go outside and kill couple of bots who stuck. I don't care about clear speed, with new players in the mod it's more about survival then clear speed anyway. And as I said, when I wanted clear speed before and team DPS allowed to do so - we just caded in the gates and killed couple of stucked bots after wave.

Maybe if we move spawns to the right no bots will stuck. Big bots spawn on end of the road should work. This way no bots will stuck and we will be able to play early waves in Senuzgda-style. On events it should be possible to play all waves in such style, so no DB speedruns failed because of stucked Ranger.

[Julia.]

Not only about kiting. Even when playing with a small team (where resources (cades) are limited) you often want to kill bots before cades, so on First Defence you often could play first 8 waves just in main gates without any cades at all. Or even cade right in the gates, when your resources and DPS is better. Which was also completely doable and we won many rag runs with such cades too.

I understand that you can not stand "just" in the gate, but it should be possible to kill most bots along the way from the gate to to the cading area, especially with a small team by using the spots in the left side of the cading area, as especially with a small team, that should be enough spots. Correct me if I am wrong.

About kiting. First Defence was top (in top-4 for sure) kiting map, and one of good Warden kiting maps (maybe even top-1 for warden). Now it's definitely one of the worse, Warden kiting is barely impossible now. Personally I skip it nowadays. And before it was reason to play a run.

For what reason/what are the problematic spots for you?

So spawns. Bots stuck and such. For me it was never big deal to go outside and kill couple of bots who stuck. I don't care about clear speed, with new players in the mod it's more about survival then clear speed anyway. And as I said, when I wanted clear speed before and team DPS allowed to do so - we just caded in the gates and killed couple of stucked bots after wave.

It was about 70% of the ranged stuck in the gatehouse area, which could only be peeked by 1-2 ppl at most. While this might not be a problem in a small run, it is a problem in a full run and against the style guidelines for maps in general. As pointed out before, I'm happy to find a solution, but the problem is there if the spawns would just be moved back.

Maybe if we move spawns to the right no bots will stuck. Big bots spawn on end of the road should work. This way no bots will stuck and we will be able to play early waves in Senuzgda-style. On events it should be possible to play all waves in such style, so no DB speedruns failed because of stucked Ranger.

My main idea to have some bots spawn on the inside was to not have that many bots come through the gatehouse in first place. With your scenario, all bots would come from there and twice as many bots would get stuck once again. I am hoping for some actual solution, this also may include a new way to move on the walls for example so the bots spawning inside would not be as much of a problem for a small group kiting. The scenario with a small group cading/staying in one spot was allready explained before.
DB does not play First Defence on their Events, so don't worry about some sort of speedrun style or a single bot been stuck. As I said before the problem was a majority of bots stuck, not a few.

[Forward]

Not only about kiting. Even when playing with a small team (where resources (cades) are limited) you often want to kill bots before cades, so on First Defence you often could play first 8 waves just in main gates without any cades at all. Or even cade right in the gates, when your resources and DPS is better. Which was also completely doable and we won many rag runs with such cades too.

I understand that you can not stand "just" in the gate, but it should be possible to kill most bots along the way from the gate to to the cading area, especially with a small team by using the spots in the left side of the cading area, as especially with a small team, that should be enough spots. Correct me if I am wrong.

Do you speak about old spawn point or new one? I simply don't see how to play this map now. Bots spawn on your face. Shooting range filled with trees, fences and other props. Bots run zig zags.

About kiting. First Defence was top (in top-4 for sure) kiting map, and one of good Warden kiting maps (maybe even top-1 for warden). Now it's definitely one of the worse, Warden kiting is barely impossible now. Personally I skip it nowadays. And before it was reason to play a run.

For what reason/what are the problematic spots for you?

Answered above.

So spawns. Bots stuck and such. For me it was never big deal to go outside and kill couple of bots who stuck. I don't care about clear speed, with new players in the mod it's more about survival then clear speed anyway. And as I said, when I wanted clear speed before and team DPS allowed to do so - we just caded in the gates and killed couple of stucked bots after wave.

It was about 70% of the ranged stuck in the gatehouse area, which could only be peeked by 1-2 ppl at most. While this might not be a problem in a small run, it is a problem in a full run and against the style guidelines for maps in general. As pointed out before, I'm happy to find a solution, but the problem is there if the spawns would just be moved back.

Maybe if we move spawns to the right no bots will stuck. Big bots spawn on end of the road should work. This way no bots will stuck and we will be able to play early waves in Senuzgda-style. On events it should be possible to play all waves in such style, so no DB speedruns failed because of stucked Ranger.

My main idea to have some bots spawn on the inside was to not have that many bots come through the gatehouse in first place. With your scenario, all bots would come from there and twice as many bots would get stuck once again. I am hoping for some actual solution, this also may include a new way to move on the walls for example so the bots spawning inside would not be as much of a problem for a small group kiting. The scenario with a small group cading/staying in one spot was allready explained before.
DB does not play First Defence on their Events, so don't worry about some sort of speedrun style or a single bot been stuck. As I said before the problem was a majority of bots stuck, not a few.

Oh, I see, you mean 'stuck' in the gatehouse area, and when I mean 'stuck' I mean outside left, near the ladder. Since usually kiting runs happen around the gatehouse, I never thought about bots there as 'stucked'.
And I wonder what might be a solution here, because ranged bots act just accordingly ranged AI, and they always stuck at such places. But on most maps it's completely negatable by having these spots open to defenders fire.
First Defence is like Yalen's retreat, but with shorter shooting range, that's why we do have such a problem.
So what might be possible fixes:

1. opening walls route for kiting keeping current spawn;
   
2. moving cading area back;
   
3. moving (adding another?) gatehouse, for example into left corner, like on another map, forgot name, it's not in rotation atm, you should know it;
   
4. making some shooting position to kill 'stucked' bots, like from above for example (like Coastal Raid, where right side bots stuck too btw);
   
5. offer other ideas.
   

Right now see #4 as preferrable solution.

Guess I should check it myself. Can you please guide me into these 'guidelines' and how you test maps (need to see it in 3D to be sure #4 idea is real).

[Julia.]

https://wiki.nordinvasion.com/doku.php?i...guidelines

And maptests can be only done with either real players on a maptest event or by hosting an own server (I had one while I was working on all those major mapchanges), but there the problem is you need to either test with a small amount of bots or ask a few friends (thats what I did), to have more than just 10 bots spawning.

Speaking of the new spawn ahead, most of the bots come straight towards you as soon they passed the gate area.

[Forward]

https://wiki.nordinvasion.com/doku.php?i...guidelines

And maptests can be only done with either real players on a maptest event or by hosting an own server (I had one while I was working on all those major mapchanges), but there the problem is you need to either test with a small amount of bots or ask a few friends (thats what I did), to have more than just 10 bots spawning.

Speaking of the new spawn ahead, most of the bots come straight towards you as soon they passed the gate area.

I didn't mean real map test, but just ability to look at 3D scene at spectator mode or scene editor.

With new spawn ofc they do, there are zero obstacles why they won't.

EDIT: I've found how to do that. Now need to think.

---

Proposed fixes:

A. Remove sheds or their roofs.
B. (Optionally) Remove bushes, they have nothing against our issue, but still against guidelines and harder to peek 'stucked' boyts.

C. (Optionally) Same as B.
D. Add a ladder to bastion wall above.

E. Remove this blockade.

So these steps should (1) Simplify peeking bots, stucked at gatehouse area, (2) open long kiting route over bastion walls.
With these changes old spawn should work again. What do you think?

[Julia.]

I think you're using the old map version, not the current one. I'll send you the current one (especially interessting for the stables).

I can already tell that adding a ladder and connecting the cade area from above will make bots come in over the wall - might be possible to add an one-way drop there so you can funnel both spawns on the wall when kiting if that's a doable solution from the kiters PoVs.

[Forward]

I think you're using the old map version, not the current one. I'll send you the current one (especially interessting for the stables).

I can already tell that adding a ladder and connecting the cade area from above will make bots come in over the wall - might be possible to add an one-way drop there so you can funnel both spawns on the wall when kiting if that's a doable solution from the kiters PoVs.

I've checked new version. With new spawn, stables changes are less important anyway.

If we remove barrels (E) and invisible wall which prevents one-way drop to area around © - I guess it will work for kiters/small teams. This way small teams will be able to play whole run on bastion walls and have backup plan to jump down and run around like at old version. I didn't really get what do you mean 'both spawns', as there only 1 atm (or both really close so whatever).

So if you ask me I like this idea. It will not revive old playing style at gatehouse, but at least will make map appealing again. Maybe with more Unusdaq-style kiting, but I'd try that one.