POLL - Leeching is still leeching, even if you are not technically "AFK"

[Spirit]

Hello to all,

      I would like to know the community opinion on this subject.  I know in the past that leeching ( getting exp/loot while doing little or nothing to help the team) was not tolerated.   I see that it has become common place in current game play, at all levels.   Has leeching now become acceptable to the community?  Let me explain my thoughts and request your input and response to the poll.

Q.  What is leeching? 
A.  As mentioned above, leeching is the act of doing the bare minimum to not be marked AFK and getting all possible gold/exp/loot chances as bots are killed by others on the team.

Q.  Why is this bad?
A.  In my opinion, this entirely unfair to the rest of your team.  The success of the run is dependent on every person on the team pulling their weight.  This may not be so important on Normal runs, but is more so no Hard, and especially on Ragnarok runs.  On almost every run where I have died and been waiting to be tomed or respawn, I go to view what others are doing.  In almost every case there are 1 or more people sitting in base still getting gold/exp/loot chances while those who have died helping progress the run are not.  Why should these people who are leeching have more chances at loot than those who are taking the risks?

Q.  What can actually be done about it?
A.  The first step taken was the implementation of the AFK timer.  Once a player is marked as AFK, then they no longer get exp/gold/loot.  However, the community is broadly aware of how to circumvent this timer.  I have actually seen other players tell someone exactly how to do it.  If the overall community is against this practice, then I will be more aggressive in enforcing this portion of "Gameplay Rules", located here....

https://wiki.nordinvasion.com/doku.php?id=rules:start

and this part in particular...

"Do make a reasonable effort to support the team. Do not use low-tier equipment as an excuse to not contribute to the team (especially as a high-tier player)."

Q.  Can only an Admin ask teammates to be more active?
A.  The answer is No.  If you feel a team member is not being a active as they should be, you have every right to politely ask them to be more engaged.  If they respond aggressively or not at all, the issue should not be escalated via the in game chat.  Instead just do ESC --> Report Player and then the admins will deal with it.

Q.  What examples of leeching have I observed?
A.  Here is  a list of things I have observed...

1.  the worst offense.. just doing absolutely nothing other than what it takes to not be marked as AFK.
2.  doing nothing other than just dropping tomes when people die.   While helpful, this is still leeching.  You are not taking any of the risks that others take while receiving ALL of the benefits.
3.  Only killing bots on occasion so that you are not on the bottom of the kill count list, but never ever actually helping to take out the ranged bots where there is a chance you might get killed and miss a loot chance.
4.  Only killing bots on Boss waves so you can get the Boss kill.  If you want the Boss kill, then do the work to get to the Boss also.

There are certainly other examples I could mention, but I think my point should be clear.

Q.  Am I not allowed to go AFK??
A.  Of course you are allowed to go AFK if necessary.  We all realize that there may be something IRL that you need to attend to.  However, this should be an exception and not the norm.  If you have something you need to do IRL that consistently takes your attention away from the run, perhaps you should give up your spot for someone who can and will actively play the game, especially if the run is full.   Do not misconstrue this to mean that it is OK to leech if the run is not full.  Leeching is never acceptable in my opinion.

   What I find most surprising and offensive is that most of the times these players are actively choosing not to participate.  If you message them to see if they are present, they respond.  When someone dies, they tome.  When bots come near them and they may die, the do something.  This is what I call "active leeching" and is more heinous than just the pure AFK leeching.  Your teammate is making the active choice not to help while still getting as much or more gold/exp/loot that others who are playing the game and taking the risks.

These are my thoughts and opinions on the subject.  Please provide your feedback and respond to the poll.

Thank you,

Spirit

[Poer]

I would not call the team members leeching who are not the peekers of the game. As a legio I'm letting crossbow or archers to peek which is more effective and mostly dont go for the ranged bots. That is not because I am"actively" leeching. It is cause there is a division of labor. 
Yeah, I mostly rush to the ranged bots if the team is rushing with me. Otherwise I will just go suicide. 
So "Active" leeching is so optional. If you can say that "We,admins, can see the difference" then it is OK.
 
Thanks for mentioning Leeching problem though.

[Venom]

Leeching should not be acceptable since everyone puts in effort to defeat the bots and earn rewards fairly. However, short AFK breaks (like a 5-minute restroom break) should be understandable, as long as the player returns and continues contributing. Completely leeching without effort is unfair to the team and takes away from the cooperative experience.

[Malong]

This was Hyper's response to "undeserved loot" becoming a coined phrase in 2013:

In general, there is no such thing as a player who "does not deserve" the loot that they receive (cheating excepted) and despite what some would have you believe, our current loot system is random.

This was k4mi's response to a merit-based system suggested in 2013:

And active players (who are already getting more loot because they are playing more then the others ) would get almost everything.
Where is that fair ? In which case would that be better than a random system ?
Do you really want to have all the items going in one direction ? I dont think so.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but the dev team hasn't officially changed its mind since then. If the literal leadership of the mod isn't going to acknowledge that this as an issue, then people can't be surprised when players take this course of action. Therefore, I voted "Yes.. I am ok with it." I would change my mind if there was an official change to the way the game works, but as it stands, this outcome can't possibly be surprising.

[DR.]

Me with 200-300 ping in all games

If I'm on top of the score board I'm either a god or the team is shit

Joking aside coming back to this game after not touching it for 5 years I've come to find really well equipped players don't have the average game sense that the older players had? I'll see a person bring in the best gear possible and it looks like they can't even kite well etc

Makes perfect sense with "gear inflation" but I think as this game has gotten easier and easier with better gear people don't need to try as much and improve at the core game


That's why it's probably more prevalent is my observation people have no incentive to even try when a half asleep rag runs will win anyway at this point

[Extaziii]

Im more annoyed when people loot at w15 with 15 kills and it feels like having lots of kills and being on top of the scoreboard gives you absolutely nothing other than tiring yourself to kill bots constantly, while some people sit back and relax or watch movies on second screen.

[Stillicho]

There's a flip-side to this. I think the whole leeching thing nowadays is a bit overstated. 

Sure not contributing but more than a few kills is a bit bad but...runs are extremely easy to get through with all the leggies and support everyone has. Tbh, even if half the team leeches the runs go fine. Unless, it's that last player not popping a tome.

Don't get me wrong, I'm not supporting leeching. At the same time, I don't see but a few people leeching to the extent you all are talking about. Kick the ones hiding in a corner half the round. Do your jobs as admin.

Starting a discussion about it is overkill.

[poxix]

I would not call the team members leeching who are not the peekers of the game. As a legio I'm letting crossbow or archers to peek which is more effective and mostly dont go for the ranged bots. That is not because I am"actively" leeching. It is cause there is a division of labor. 
Yeah, I mostly rush to the ranged bots if the team is rushing with me. Otherwise I will  just go suicide. 
So "Active" leeching is so optional. If you can say that "We,admins, can see the difference" then it is OK.
 
Thanks for mentioning Leeching problem though.

Adding to this answer, you have to take into account the player's ping (I play some CN server, and I can say you will rarely see me with a lot of kill), and the area the players choose to cade, as an example fortress outskirts I think it is, where player decide to cade even more in the rear where it let other a limited amount of spot to peek and kill bots.

[Spirit]

I would not call the team members leeching who are not the peekers of the game. As a legio I'm letting crossbow or archers to peek which is more effective and mostly dont go for the ranged bots. That is not because I am"actively" leeching. It is cause there is a division of labor. 
Yeah, I mostly rush to the ranged bots if the team is rushing with me. Otherwise I will  just go suicide. 
So "Active" leeching is so optional. If you can say that "We,admins, can see the difference" then it is OK.
 
Thanks for mentioning Leeching problem though.

 Hello Poer,

     I agree with your statement.  And if you are doing your part when it is appropriate to do so, then you are not actively leeching and this is not directed toward you or others who do the same.  I recognize that the Infantry do not go charge the ranged waves until they are thinned out a bit by our own ranged.  This is not "active leeching" as you state but simply non-suicidal gameplay.

Thank you,

Spirit

p.s.  I have to admit that I do sometime get overzealous in my role of "protecting the flock" as an RG.  It is my role to take the brunt of the sword and spear when infantry charge and to divert the ranged from our peeker so they are less vulnerable.  I sometimes charge too early on a range wave (snipers/ballistamen) or allow a bot to get behind me and die... allowing me the chance to observe this phenomena.

---

I would not call the team members leeching who are not the peekers of the game. As a legio I'm letting crossbow or archers to peek which is more effective and mostly dont go for the ranged bots. That is not because I am"actively" leeching. It is cause there is a division of labor. 
Yeah, I mostly rush to the ranged bots if the team is rushing with me. Otherwise I will  just go suicide. 
So "Active" leeching is so optional. If you can say that "We,admins, can see the difference" then it is OK.
 
Thanks for mentioning Leeching problem though.

Adding to this answer, you have to take into account the player's ping (I play some CN server, and I can say you will rarely see me with a lot of kill), and the area the players choose to cade, as an example fortress outskirts I think it is, where player decide to cade even more in the rear where it let other a limited amount of spot to peek and kill bots.

Hello Poxix,

    Yes, I also play on the CN servers and the ping is an issue.  However, I do also see people with 400+ ping (kudos Stephany) be successful archers.  I would not expect them to be top kills, but they are at least putting out the effort and doing the best they can given their situation.  This post is also not directed at any such player... as long as they are putting out the effort.  Just as the rules mention not using low level gear as an excuse not to try, having high ping is also not an excuse not to try.  All that is asked is that you try rather than do nothing.

Thank you,

Spirit

[Poer]

I would not call the team members leeching who are not the peekers of the game. As a legio I'm letting crossbow or archers to peek which is more effective and mostly dont go for the ranged bots. That is not because I am"actively" leeching. It is cause there is a division of labor. 
Yeah, I mostly rush to the ranged bots if the team is rushing with me. Otherwise I will  just go suicide. 
So "Active" leeching is so optional. If you can say that "We,admins, can see the difference" then it is OK.
 
Thanks for mentioning Leeching problem though.

Adding to this answer, you have to take into account the player's ping (I play some CN server, and I can say you will rarely see me with a lot of kill), and the area the players choose to cade, as an example fortress outskirts I think it is, where player decide to cade even more in the rear where it let other a limited amount of spot to peek and kill bots.

Yeah,good point. Maps make difference also.