(18-06-2019, 01:43 PM)Malong Wrote: This doesn't address the fact that there are bots that take at least three hits for certain classes and weapons. That means (mathematically and undeniably) that those players are dealing less than 50% with each hit, thus you still want more than one hit on a bot. It also doesn't address the fact that when you only need quest credit for some of the bots in the wave, you are still incentivized to attack those bots rather than any other bot, agnostic of bots' remaining health. Your theoretical player still wants to hit the damaged Siege Master over the full health Einherjar Sniper, for example. Granted, they might favor hitting a full health Siege Master over a damaged one. At this point, the game state moves to a point where the only Siege Masters remaining are damaged; at this point, your theoretical player tries to attack the damaged Siege Masters. After that, the game state moves to a point where all Siege Masters are dead. Do we know for a fact that once this game state is reached, those players then AFK in the back and type something to the effect of "all my bots are killed, you guys handle the rest?" This has not been established. We also know that the current payoff for quest credit is 100% in getting the last hit. The current analogous optimal play pattern to get the most advantage is to wait for a bot to be damaged to the point that their next hit kills the bot before attacking it. We don't see this behavior currently. And all of this also ignores the fact that the few players that care about the quest already aim for the bots that spawn on few waves. Despite this, we have yet to see "runs going for longer."
Even if you have a screenshot of the above "all my bots are killed" statement being typed, how many players have this attitude? To use Falankos as an example, there was at least a month where he only needed bots on Ragnarok waves 13 and 14, and yet he played entire games getting kills on every wave up to and after 13 and 14 for no credit. He certainly didn't wait in spectator until wave 13 spawn, nor go AFK in the back until wave 13. Supposing that at least one player has this attitude where they only care about quest completion: what measurable effect would this does it have on the duration of a game? There is absolutely no evidence that changing kills of each bot to damage dealt to each bot equal to 500 times its maximum health will lead to a game taking longer to complete. This doesn't take into account the fact that few players care about the quest in the first place (five have completed the quest so far, and far more than five people in the community play multiple classes not prioritizing their quest progress) and thus don't modify their behavior to maximize the benefits.
Anyway, none of this disproves the fact that if you understood basic concepts like "the quest goal should be to deal the equivalent damage of 500 of each bots' health," and "I can't deal more damage than the amount of health a bot has remaining," you would never have posted these below, especially the bolded parts that show your lack of understanding of the suggestion. So... Stop. Lying.
At what point did I say this player stops after getting the kills they need? If someone needs all bots in rag which is most people still it just expanded my point to more bots.
Siege Master --> Nord Chosen Champion --> Einherjar Pikeman --> etc (in whatever order is easiest for that class and what you need for the quest the most)
"Not even killing the bot mind you." is in reference to it being about damage and not about killing the bot.
Let's say someone says "We need help at the cades"
ATM if its bots you need is at the cades well your already trying to kill them I hope. With it being about damage/hp it would be more efficient to get the bots no one else is aiming for. With slashers or not even in mind the best bet would be aiming for the bots that are farthest away from the cades as they will be more likely to still have full Hp.
Atm it's more efficient to work as a team were some "kill stealing" may take place.
vs
Were it would be efficient to work alone and try to hit every bot before anyone else does.
I'm not going to bring up some bots heal each other so do you expect the Dev team to code a cutoff point for how much damage you can get out of a bot?
An Xbow can 1 hit some bots when bows need a good amount more than 1. This is part of the reason why you pick Xbow. Xbow is probably better for rag but the tradeoff is sniper is better at normal then you have pikeman in the middle (big generalization).
Its the same with weapons If i have a Typhoon yes it's probably better at rag as it may be the difference between a bot needing 4 arrows vs 5. Tempest has the speed to outdo Typhoon on normal without a doubt and i would guess hard till some of the later bots. Some classes/weapons have speed and others have damage or some were in the middle. Each one has its downsides and benefits.
Overall i find atm the quicker the weapon is the more easily you can "kill steal". That's a big generalization as at some points i find you do need the damage. Like i find the stats for Typhoon and Tempest to be equivalent other than flight speed.
Saying some classes or weapons can 1 shot thing is one point but in the same line, the fact needs to be what is that class and does it have any downsides like speed? Daggers and Alia are were i think the start should be almost.
Daggers we all know at this point a nerf is coming so don't really need to bring it up but i guess i can. The speed of daggers is ridiculous makes peeking a joke and bosses look like statues. In saying this i still want them to be the fastest thing in the game but at greater cost to 1st flight speed, 2nd damage and ammo 3rd. Alia i don't like but i can understand why people like it. Having that much speed and still having over 100p with almost no downsides. I'm not going to suggest a nerf as i have used that weapon less than steel stinger. Someone that's not biased can look into it and see if it needs some sort of change.
(18-06-2019, 01:43 PM)Malong Wrote: I know you're probably not directing this towards me, but to make fully clear: My first post in this discussion (not first of the thread) just states this would make it "unquestionably equitable." I even typed that "it probably evens out." However I know implementation of mechanics in this mod very rarely takes merit into consideration. Quick text search of this thread shows that of the previous posts, only Woody's contain "problem" and one of Srellian's contains "issue." Again:
(04-05-2019, 05:19 PM)Woody Wrote: Kill stealing is a problem just like how to double peeking is a problem may be to a lesser extent but i see them being related. You complain when it happens to you but you don't complain when you do it.
Once again if its a problem it's so small who really gives a fuck.
(16-06-2019, 04:57 PM)Malong Wrote: Over a long course of time, it probably evens out such that getting no credit from someone else getting the last hit to that player getting the last hit over someone else; but basing credit off damage would make it unquestionably equitable.
Nope. It would lead to a greater gap in the number of people that do the quest and the ones that don't.
"Kill stealing" once again.
(04-05-2019, 05:19 PM)Woody Wrote: Kill stealing is a problem just like how to double peeking is a problem may be to a lesser extent but i see them being related. You complain when it happens to you but you don't complain when you do it.
Occam's Razor. The quest is fine or very close to it. This "fix" just adds more problems. A change in whats needed in the quest would be more beneficial to players then in what way you accomplish it.
The changes i said here would affect more people for the better --> https://forum.nordinvasion.com/showthread.php?tid=71799.
Altho why work on trying to change this quest when time can be put in to make others better or to make new ones.
(04-05-2019, 05:19 PM)Woody Wrote: What I want out of quests
To be rewarded for either playing a lot on 1 id or be rewarded for making more than 1 hero. Let the player choose.
To have goals that always feel unreachable but some that feel achievable
(Add meme about what's faction points)
Quests for things that are not killing.
Like
Heals
Shielding
Crafting
Have ative house members?
Headshots
Damage taken
Damage received
Waves completed