Turning Alchemist Crafting Into Alchemist Crafting.

[DR.]

I think it would be good if we could trade up real basic mats to the "harder" to get ones like Eagles, Lumps, ...etc. 

The idea is you need some amount of Worm Roots to craft 1 Bent Sword or whatever then, later on, you will need some amount of Hm to craft 1 Lump.


This is just an example 

I have not listed crafted mats as I think once you have used mats to "craft" something it's locked to that? Idk that could be up to debate.  

V1

I'm not sure how many stages you would have for example it could just be 3 or 4 even 2.

V2

Also, I'm not sure how I feel about this but I think going the other way maybe also good for the market also. For example, I could "uncraft" Scales to get some amount of Heavy Cloth.

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Questions and Answers.

Q1) Why do you think this should be added?

A) So The basic mat market can be self regulating. When the demand becomes so high for something like Heavy Cloth, Wolf t, .... etc. The market can give you another way to get them other than looting/trading. 
    The same can be said when a mat price is lower than it should be. You can turn it into something else at a cost.


Q2) What do you think will be the impact on the market? 

A) This is just 1 form of regulating mat prices. 
     We had it before when we could sell mats to the market place, For example, Zinc, Ravens and Bronze arrows had a minimum price of 7k as that's what "Ni" would pay for them.
     Unlike back then this will not be a way to get cash this will be a way to get different mats. 
     I can't say for certain what will happen but my guess is it would take a few weeks for the market prices to adjust accordingly. 
     After time it should be far more self-adjusting on whats being looted the most to what's been needed the most. 
     This way If people really want one thing but end up looting a different thing they have a new way to get it.  


Q3) Do you think people will use this all the time?

A) At the start, I'm sure "good" deals will show them self but overtime, after the market adjusts accordingly I would think trading would be far more popular given better deals, can be had there. 
     Like when Zinc etc could be sold for 7k it will happen a lot at the start till all the [X] was taken out of the market then in time it became wanted more as it was harder to trade for.
     Overall I think people will use this way to get goods but I see auction hall still being the number 1 place people get mats 2nd being trading. 


Q4) What would happen with the old Alchemist stuff like Tomes, Barrels etc...

A)  I'm not sure. You could 
     (A) Move them to other Personal Crafted/House Crafted area's.
     (B) Leave them there
     (C.) Rename the Alchemist atm then make a new Alchemist so we have 4 Personal Crafted options to pick from.


Q5) Crafting wise what are you expecting here?

A) I would expect you would have mini-classes that way you need the 1 basic mat to end up with what you want.
     Like I could start off with Old Boots to craft Heavy Cloth then Bear Fur or if I start with Crooked Stick it goes  Crooked Stick --> Sturdy Wood --> Wood of Glasir.
     I would give people 1-2 ways to get to a mat this way people can't just buy the one basic mat to craft every mat. 
    
     If you do make it mini crafting trees there no reason why you can't for example make it different costs.
     I think the crafting values can be the same going from a t1 mat to a tr2 but Ill leave that to the devs. 
    
     10x Crooked Stick --> 1x Sturdy Wood
     10x Sturdy Wood --> 1x Wood of Glasir

     10x Old Boots --> 1x Heavy Cloth 
     10x Heavy Cloth --> 1x Bear Fur

     Or make them different costs.

     10x Crooked Stick --> 1x Sturdy Wood
     10x Sturdy Wood --> 1x Wood of Glasir

     20x Old Boots --> 1x Heavy Cloth 
       5x Heavy Cloth --> 1x Bear Fur


Q6) What gave you this Idea?

A) I will answer this from my perspective and from a new player. 
     
    (Me) In theory, I could trade all 22317 x Old Boots for some amount of Heavy Cloth. In Practice who wants Old Boots let alone that many? This is just 1 example.
    
    (New) If I was a newer person it would be more effective to sell all the mats I get to richer people for items/gold to buy items. 
    Like everyone else, I would be looting stuff rich and not even dont want as they have an abundance of it already and no real use for it.
    I don't need Old Boots, etc... I only want a handful of mats that have the most demand. 

    I don't want most mats atm but if I could turn the basic mats into ones I needed the most now I have a reason to give new people my money for ALL the mats they have.

[Forward]

Materials market is self-regulating and no additional crafting options required just because you think "mat price is lower than it should be".

[DR.]

just because you think "mat price is lower than it should be".

Thinking stuff is Lower or Higher is not the point here. Read it all.

[Malong]

I don't think it's necessary. Players should proactively think of solutions to avoid these bottlenecks by playing the difficulties from which the bottleneck materials drop the most. And I am typing this as someone who would greatly benefit from this:

Spoiler

Bone Shard 13583
Crooked Stick 18417
Hydra Leaf 41653
Nem Flower 21183
Old Boots 32315
Spurn Berry 20304
Worm Root 73955

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just because you think "mat price is lower than it should be".

Thinking stuff is Lower or Higher is not the point here. Read it all.

That wasn't his point. Read it all.

Also, he's literally quoting you and your evaluation:

Questions and Answers.

Q1) Why do you think this should be added?

A) So The basic mat market can be self regulating. When the demand becomes so high for something like Heavy Cloth, Wolf t, .... etc. The market can give you another way to get them other than looting/trading. 
    The same can be said when a mat price is lower than it should be. You can turn it into something else at a cost.

[DR.]

I don't think it's necessary. Players should proactively think of solutions to avoid these bottlenecks by playing the difficulties from which the bottleneck materials drop the most. And I am typing this as someone who would greatly benefit from this:

This does not solve the problem of answer 6.

If I could I would play to loot the stuff I wanted as I already do. In the proses of doing so on [X] difficulty most of the stuff, I'm looting in the meantime, is not what I want and not what most people want. 

Selling mats to get other mats that have the highest demand is almost imposable as I'm sure you are aware of.

2 Years ago, I had almost 40k basic wood. For about a year I tried my best to sell it on the Ah and in trades yet I'm still at 20897 x Basic Wood... Not to add how many upgrades and other stuff I have crafted in the meantime...

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That wasn't his point. Read it all.

Also, he's literally quoting you and your evaluation:

The Devs make the drop rates and the mat sinks. They control the supply and demand. For this reason, is it really self regulating or is it dev regulating? I didn't want to bring this up as this change gives them the power once again to make the exchange rate costs, however. A change like this gives players some power in their hands. If a player feels like it would be justified using [X] amount of mat to make [Y] they can do so.

My response to Forward was in a rush [4 am] so only had time to show how this was not the main point here. Q6 Is more of the main point and the last sentence.

I could have worded A1 a bit better as I want to say something on the lines of.


A1) So The basic mat market can be self regulating. When the demand becomes so high for something like Heavy Cloth, Wolf t, .... etc. The market can give you another way to get them other than looting/trading/depending on devs to change drop rates or mat sinks. The same can be said when you think the demand for a mat is lower or higher than it should be. With a change like this, it gives you the power to make the decisions on what you just looted. If you don't need 1 thing but have lots of it this tool gives you the ability to trade (Ni) for what you want.

I think that's a better answer to question 1. 

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If I want Heavy C or whatever where do I go? Tbh I think cav may have the best drop rate for it and I'm not even joking. The point of me saying this it's not an easy system to rap yourself around when the drop rate feels like it can change overnight some days. Mats drop from multipole bots and multipole difficulties... Ive said this with legendaries in how it should be something like this.

Beginner - Collectables
Normal - Orange 
Hard - More than 1 Hero
Rag - 1 Hero 

Cav 1-5 - Orange
Cav 6-10 - More than 1 Hero
Cav 11-15 - 1 Hero 

The same could be done with mats altho I would do it this way.

Spoiler

You play 
Beginner - Collectables and basic mats
Normal - Rare mats
Hard - Good loot and good mats
Rag - The best loot stats wise
Cav - For it all

Doing it this way gives you a good reason to play normal even tho it got a"nerf" in legendaries. If this was done if people really wanted something they can go do that mode and know for a fact it's here.

[Kaasovic]

Balancing a system like this at the current state of the mod is near impossible, mainly because other then the "normal" and "rare" rarities, there is no hierarchy withing those rarities. I really don't want to find out the individual conversion rate that matches the material.

Also your list of hoe you thinks drops should be make no sense at all. You want the easiest bots to kill on the fastest mode to beat to drop the most rare materials? (insert Chris Griffins "¿Queeeeeeee?"). Do you even think before you post stuff like this?

[DR.]

Balancing a system like this at the current state of the mod is near impossible, mainly because other then the "normal" and "rare" rarities, there is no hierarchy withing those rarities. I really don't want to find out the individual conversion rate that matches the material.

It would be hard sure but the point is to make it an exchange rate most people will not do unless the outcome is rewarding enough to you. I don't see it as being impossible I see it being work.

You already price mats as devs as you make us pick in tournament awards what group we want.

The exchange rate is the hardest bit to get right here. The more rarities in basic mats you make the easier it will be as it will be smaller jumps rather than guessing how many Worm Roots = a Lump.

Like I said its all up to the devs here. You may make it 2 or 3 or 5 sets of rarities. Hell, you already have 2.




That's 1 group I would make for example. 

Hardened Metal 
Sturdy Wood 
Heavy Cloth
Shade Ore 
Coal

Its not near impossible it can be done.

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Also your list of hoe you thinks drops should be make no sense at all. You want the easiest bots to kill on the fastest mode to beat to drop the most rare materials? (insert Chris Griffins "¿Queeeeeeee?").

Normal would have the rarest mats yes...?  What makes it a "rare" mat?

The drop rate is the factor you are forgetting here.

Also, ill add read my last part

"Doing it this way gives you a good reason to play normal even tho it got a"nerf" in legendaries. If this was done if people really wanted something they can go do that mode and know for a fact it's here"

Do you even think before you post stuff like this?

Would ask the same to you then.

[Malong]

Do you even think before you post stuff like this?

Spoiler

[Kura]

What about a daily transmute system for Alchemists?

The point of an Alchemist in games is usually related to some Mystic Element, without hurting the economy you could have for example:

X + X = (N*) x Lump of Lead
24 hour cooldown.

this could also be how you can add other systems for Alchemists, Example:

Luck of the priest - Tome Enchant = "Sometimes able to spawn in an extra tome" (N* % Chance)
Unending Quiver - Arrows = "Sometimes uses an arrow from thin air" (N* % Chance(Take a shot without consuming ammo))

Alchemist could be used for other interesting things other than a flat out Material craft.

[Malong]

This does not solve the problem of answer 6.

Did you mean a different question? Your 6th question (and the question corresponding to your sixth answer) was:

Q6) What gave you this Idea?

If I could I would play to loot the stuff I wanted as I already do. In the proses of doing so on [X] difficulty most of the stuff, I'm looting in the meantime, is not what I want and not what most people want. 

Selling mats to get other mats that have the highest demand is almost imposable as I'm sure you are aware of. 

2 Years ago, I had almost 40k basic wood. For about a year I tried my best to sell it on the Ah and in trades yet I'm still at 20897 x Basic Wood... Not to add how many upgrades and other stuff I have crafted in the meantime... 

What is the problem? Do as everyone else does, save them for the next upgrade or sell the surplus and use that gold to buy the mats you want. There is always somebody crafting something and you'll get something out of materials you won't use.

Before I started drafting this post, I went on AH to look at material prices, and halfway through typing this post, refreshed it and some of the lowest materials were not listed anymore; i.e. they sold or their listings expired. As the listings were not the oldest, they sold. Is your issue that you are expecting the previous higher prices in a world where people have huge surpluses, and thus aren't willing to sell?

The Devs make the drop rates and the mat sinks. They control the supply and demand. For this reason, is it really self regulating or is it dev regulating? I didn't want to bring this up as this change gives them the power once again to make the exchange rate costs, however. A change like this gives players some power in their hands. If a player feels like it would be justified using [X] amount of mat to make [Y] they can do so. 

Only indirectly. And that was probably all devised without any analysis on where the population plays, at what frequencies players play different difficulties relative to each other, and the drop chances and quantities likely aren't automated nor dynamic to adjust for changing metagames.

And honestly, it's pretty obvious that the quantities used in crafting recipes do not take into consideration that players are meant to get each required material simultaneously. In other words, these bottlenecks and surpluses are not purposeful. If Development already wasn't able or willing to put forth the effort to balance out the required materials of upgrade materials versus the drop rates, what makes you think they will do so for an individual material versus another material?

If I want Heavy C or whatever where do I go? Tbh I think cav may have the best drop rate for it and I'm not even joking. The point of me saying this it's not an easy system to rap yourself around when the drop rate feels like it can change overnight some days. Mats drop from multipole bots and multipole difficulties... Ive said this with legendaries in how it should be something like this.

Beginner - Collectables
Normal - Orange 
Hard - More than 1 Hero
Rag - 1 Hero 

Cav 1-5 - Orange
Cav 6-10 - More than 1 Hero
Cav 11-15 - 1 Hero 

The same could be done with mats altho I would do it this way.

Spoiler

You play 
Beginner - Collectables and basic mats
Normal - Rare mats
Hard - Good loot and good mats
Rag - The best loot stats wise
Cav - For it all

Doing it this way gives you a good reason to play normal even tho it got a"nerf" in legendaries. If this was done if people really wanted something they can go do that mode and know for a fact it's here.

You want the basic mats to come from Ragnarok and the lowest waves of Cavalry? There's no analogue between Ragnarok and Cavalry waves 1-5. And then plants are only available to low level characters and the only material I would want out of Ragnarok is Wolf Teeth Necklaces? And collect[i]bles that aren't known to drop are now going to drop for low level characters?



Where I work, we use JIRA to track software issues, feature requests, documentation requests, support requests, etc. There's a ticket status of "Rejected" which we jokingly refer to as "STFU and GTFO." A Dev heard you out and made fun of you. It's over; so "STFU and GTFO."

Now go do what you normally do and:

* claim you were trolling us all along, or
* type "thanks for playing," or
* we don't understand what you mean, or
* close the thread

Also here's a bonus "Woody being a hypocrite" quote:

Spoiler

Altho why work on trying to change this [feature] when time can be put in to make others better or to make new ones.