Nord Invasion about to fizzle out.

[Mr.Peso]

Bots kicking or bots with crush weapons could really make the game more interesting. It may just end in people spam healing on theese waves but well, cant really get much worse than it is atm.

I indeed got you a bit wrong there, even though imo my statement is still true in general.

[DR.]

Bots kicking or bots with crush weapons could really make the game more interesting. It may just end in people spam healing on theese waves but well, cant really get much worse than it is atm.

I indeed got you a bit wrong there, even though imo my statement is still true in general.

I could see Fatsod and others getting crush weapons and lowering the number of them spawned.
Just to change it up a bit i guess.

[Ribbed]

A bit off the newer player topic= but I found something pertaining to making ragnorok a lot harder:

http://www.moddb.com/mods/doghotels-brainy-bots

This mod used to not be compatible with mod merging besides for native, but now it's possible, I suggest looking into this and seeing how it can improve the ai and raise the difficulty for ragnorok.

I just tested this mod out through sp, the higher numbers cause lots of fps issues. If this were to be implemented nord numbers would have to be brought down(which I wouldn't actually mind at all). The bots are insanely tough in melee though, the only way I could stand a chance on a new char against even one was to lower the combat speed to slow.

[Noidenous]

First time back and looking at the forums in about... 2 1/2 years or so...

I used to spend all my time playing this mod with a half dozen of my gaming mates, as it was an absolute hoot when we started about 4 years ago. We had our own server, and enforced a play style that deliberately reduced the amount of 'cheaping' players would employ. I'm talking 'the last' and deliberate respawns.

I saw a particular House complete all the waves by using the barricading tactic, as opposed to the chaos that used to prevail before it. All of a sudden, every map and every change to the game catered to this tactic. We even saw members of this particular House admitted to the admin and development team.

Gradually, the chaotic nature of the game that saw NO-ONE get to the last wave and survive became one great big turkey shoot... and boy did it get fraternised, sycophantic and boring as shit.

House servers were removed, so we couldn't enforce the way we played anymore -- even though we were paying for our own space -- and the market became ridiculously inflated, where the only way to progress was to farm for 10 weeks in barricade after barricade or lick the incumbent House's arsehole to get insider deals.

The arrogance of the admins/devs and their inability to listen to those with constructive feedback, combined with this 'how are we going to challenge the caders' mentality created a rot that couldn't be stopped.

I don't care how the kiting is prevented (players marginally slower than the AI seems best), but this mod will most certainly die unless the gameplay is opened up to allow for freeform battle once more. The AI is too stupid to deal with 'tactical' (I say tactical, but really, it's a single cheap tactic) play, but in a swarm on open ground, it offers a challenge that is difficult to overcome when the force balance is 4:1.

Some people might pipe up and say, 'but this game is better than it ever was'. I, and everyone I know who put a decent amount of time into it, disagree.

[Malong]

I don't care how the kiting is prevented (players marginally slower than the AI seems best), but this mod will most certainly die unless the gameplay is opened up to allow for freeform battle once more. The AI is too stupid to deal with 'tactical' (I say tactical, but really, it's a single cheap tactic) play, but in a swarm on open ground, it offers a challenge that is difficult to overcome when the force balance is 4:1.

I think you're romanticizing that era. If you recall, there was a time period where developers were actively removing barricade and potential base locations from maps. The result was a huge blow to the active population. Here was the public outcry. Face facts, most people want ease in their leisure activities. This current situation of the removal of kite paths is a straight analogy to the issues of removing cade spots discussed in the thread I linked, and we're literally repeating history.

[Noidenous]

[quote author=Noidenous link=topic=45644.msg239946#msg239946 date=1440160572]
I don't care how the kiting is prevented (players marginally slower than the AI seems best), but this mod will most certainly die unless the gameplay is opened up to allow for freeform battle once more. The AI is too stupid to deal with 'tactical' (I say tactical, but really, it's a single cheap tactic) play, but in a swarm on open ground, it offers a challenge that is difficult to overcome when the force balance is 4:1.

I think you're romanticizing that era. If you recall, there was a time period where developers were actively removing barricade and potential base locations from maps. The result was a huge blow to the active population. Here was the public outcry. Face facts, most people want ease in their leisure activities. This current situation of the removal of kite paths is a straight analogy to the issues of removing cade spots discussed in the thread I linked, and we're literally repeating history.
[/quote]
I believe the problem at the time was a lack of mappers and, by extension, quality maps, despite the nature of said public outcry.

Instead of having more elaborate maps that allowed for progressive difficulty -- rather than the smack in the face that Hard Mode was at the time -- barricading became so much the norm that it was absolutely required and had to be catered for. This was especially the case when proximal looting was introduced.

I'd be more inclined to play some of the maps included now if the necessity for walling/cading was reduced and the different modes were reworked accordingly.

Sure, grouping together in that manner would still work, thus making legendary and material drops easier to come by, but I personally don't need a legendary chance to enjoy myself. The draw for me used to be that a Commando or Archer could solo up to level 8 on normal and help newbies progress if they'd put in the time necessary, yet be easily overcome on later waves without experienced assistance.

Watching someone take on all the remaining Zweihanders used to add a level of fun that naturally built a level of freeform teamwork and gave the scrubs something to work towards. Hard Mode was simply too hard and removed all enjoyment garnered in such a way.

The overall design process had some serious flaws and with each patch, another band-aid was applied in ignorance/spite of the underlying problem.

[Malong]

I believe the problem at the time was a lack of mappers and, by extension, quality maps, despite the nature of said public outcry.

100% incorrect. The maps were being purposefully edited to remove choke points, and be more open. The movement was the idea that the mod should be more difficult, and a lot of players stopped playing. Recall Swadian Town, Swadian Outskirts from those eras. Players were just playing the archer and now-defunct cavalry classes where cavalry would kite the bots while archers would shoot from further back. It was done because it gave the best chance for progression, instead of the "fun" of playing infantry and trying to defeat bots. If that was really the player base's idea of fun, more players would have done that, but they didn't.

Instead of having more elaborate maps that allowed for progressive difficulty -- rather than the smack in the face that Hard Mode was at the time -- barricading became so much the norm that it was absolutely required and had to be catered for. This was especially the case when proximal looting was introduced.

Because regardless of what you think, people don't want too much of a challenge, let alone insurmountable ones. Your quarrel seems to be with human nature and the demographics of this mod.

[Noidenous]

[quote author=Noidenous link=topic=45644.msg239952#msg239952 date=1440167018]
I believe the problem at the time was a lack of mappers and, by extension, quality maps, despite the nature of said public outcry.

100% incorrect. The maps were being purposefully edited to remove choke points, and be more open. The movement was the idea that the mod should be more difficult, and a lot of players stopped playing. Recall Swadian Town, Swadian Outskirts from those eras. Players were just playing the archer and now-defunct cavalry classes where cavalry would kite the bots while archers would shoot from further back. It was done because it gave the best chance for progression, instead of the "fun" of playing infantry and trying to defeat bots. If that was really the player base's idea of fun, more players would have done that, but they didn't.

Instead of having more elaborate maps that allowed for progressive difficulty -- rather than the smack in the face that Hard Mode was at the time -- barricading became so much the norm that it was absolutely required and had to be catered for. This was especially the case when proximal looting was introduced.

Because regardless of what you think, people don't want too much of a challenge, let alone insurmountable ones. Your quarrel seems to be with human nature and the demographics of this mod.
[/quote]
Not sure about the other servers, but the Australian ones were thriving (three or four of them often full) prior to the changes I've mentioned.

I started about a month before cavalry was removed and the drive for enclosed maps was renewed. Kiting was definitely a problem with cavalry (rightfully removed), and far too many archers were exploiting the 'shoot through the top of the shield and run away' mechanic, leading to massive wait times for other players.

The 8 or so maps at the time were nice and open, however the spawning process ended up in a non-staggered approach from the bots, leading to every player being mobbed sequentially. A rethink of the way in which the spawning flowed and the difficulty was increased would've rejuvenated the scene rather than force it down the path it took.

Am certainly not claiming to be the voice of every player, but I do hope to see an NI or other Invasion mod for Bannerlord that doesn't emphasise/promote the type of gameplay NI became. My main point of interest in Bannerlord's eventual release is whether the bot AI will be more dynamic and if their collision issues are resolved.

[Slayer]

Lol I'll just post one example of a plague in this game. Ranged>Melee. The ONLY waves you need some melee are Thor/Odin.

It sickens me to death that once upon a time, in fact probably even now still that the actual gameplay style was "Why shielder? Why we shield when we can cade? Pew pew pew shoot shoot shoot!! ".

Yesterday I played for the first time propperly in idk how many months, but I did a lot of runs in hard/rag, anyhow safe to say there were a MAXIUMUM of 3 commandos including myself on every single public run. Soon after, I joined an event, there were 4 shielders and 3 slashers with the rest being ranged - The enemies didn't even reach the shield wall until wave 16 & 20, I was the medic in that fight, sitting back watching as there wasn't a spam refil, I think I didn't have to do anything for 12 waves because everything would just die and I would have nothing to do.

Back in the day when SGS was amazing and if you had a Flamberge with trans, you were a god. Notice how every single person in this thread is noting about the Flamberge/SGS and Trans/SKS being amazing? That's because ranged were pathetically useless back then. In the old hard mode, if you stuck your nose out - BOOM Bear clan hunter shot you straight in the face and would 1 hit you.

Back in those times, it was SO HARD to get anywhere in those servers because the ranged were so hard to kill, the swadian archers/crossbowmen/pikeman could not do ANYWHERE NEAR as much damage as they do now.

Back then with Warbow and bodkin arrows it would take something like 7-8 headshots to kill 1 archer, then when you upgraded to sharpshooter and bronze it would take about 4-5 to kill 1 archer. Pikeman simply had Jarrids and they weren't that strong, now they have Dragon Breath, Rupturers, Twigs -- Not to mention a LOT of ammo, PIERCE THROUGH FKIN SHIELDS LIKE ITS BEING FIRED FROM A BALLISTA, Flies super fast, easy to handle, and does a lot of damage.

Crossbowmen back then were really a powerhouse when it came to killing off archers/bosses, because back then remember how I was saying snipers had a tough time killing archers, it took crossbowment an average of 2-3+ Headshots to snipe one archer down instead of the 5-6 the snipers needed (Back then pikeman throwing wasn't even a thing because it was so weak).

That ladies and gentlemen is the problem with todays hard and rag, that is why it is SO EASY. I'm not even going to lie I sat in one of those public servers yesterday with rammy and 3/4 waves through I remember saying "I remember when hard was actually hard".

I guarantee, you take away 50% of the ranged power that they currently have now, good luck to any public server getting anywhere because 80% of players are fucking ranged, it is so overpowered.

Ranged Pros:

• Rediculous Damage from a safe distance
  
• Lots of Ammo
  
• Highly Mobile & can simply run from enemies while killing them
  
• Don't need to be up and close to bosses that can 1 hit you
  
• Get more kills & xp/gold along with loot because you don't die as often.
  

Ranged Cons:

• ... Can't think of any to be honest, beside being able to knock bosses down.. oh wait... big shot.... but that's fair has a long reload time.
  

Melee Pros:

• You have higher armour, so you can take more hits, but you're going to be taking the hits anyway and considering almost everything in higher difficulty 1 shots you or close to 1 shots you, it doesn't matter.
  
• You can use a shield a little bit better then a ranged, halberdier.
  

Melee Cons:

• You die first, all the time. If you are shielding, you will most likely die and not get boss loot, or loot at all.
  
• You take a lot of hits and rely on healers that don't exist.
  
• You do significantly less damage than ranged units whilst being in melee range in danger of the enemy.
  
• If you can't shield or slash, you are essentially useless.
  
• You can't run from anything and live.
  

It is just insane how overpowered ranged has been over the past years. It's no wonder 80% of servers are ranged. Melee should do a LOT more damage then ranged. Pikeman should be no where near as OP in their throwing that they are now.

Simply a lot of game balancing issues which has made todays Hard/Rag/Normal, all easy mode.

[Bobo]

(...) I joined an event, there were 4 shielders and 3 slashers with the rest being ranged - The enemies didn't even reach the shield wall until wave 16 & 20, (...)

You must have been playing on King's Castleyard The Castleyard events are sooo boring, just spamming arrows... I made an event once to play other maps but house members expressed their disconsent and so we're back to Castleyard again...
But on other maps now, after enemy ranged troops take position in the back, there's plenty of work for all classes and it goes pretty hard sometimes. I wouldn't say we lack balance in NI atm, just try other maps.
Still, nice one, Slayer, I agree with some conclusions (while I'd oppose some others).