Nord Invasion about to fizzle out.

[Malong]

Yesterday I played for the first time propperly in idk how many months, but I did a lot of runs in hard/rag, anyhow safe to say there were a MAXIUMUM of 3 commandos including myself on every single public run. Soon after, I joined an event, there were 4 shielders and 3 slashers with the rest being ranged - The enemies didn't even reach the shield wall until wave 16 & 20, I was the medic in that fight, sitting back watching as there wasn't a spam refil, I think I didn't have to do anything for 12 waves because everything would just die and I would have nothing to do...That ladies and gentlemen is the problem with todays hard and rag, that is why it is SO EASY. I'm not even going to lie I sat in one of those public servers yesterday with rammy and 3/4 waves through I remember saying "I remember when hard was actually hard".

This (bots not reaching shield wall, no refill) sounds like King's Castleyard. On any other map, you don't get a huge buffer and length of time to fire at bots before they are any threat. So in those cases, you need a shield wall with slashers, especially given the fact that bots tend to walk right through gaps in shielders. Of course, a developer will read this and conclude (with specious reasoning) that the solution is to nerf King's Castleyard.

[Slayer]

Ranged is still OP regardless of the map.

[FV_HappyMonk3y99]

Ranged is still OP regardless of the map.

As a player who has 3 ranged characters, I agree they need a nerf. I feel like I barely try and get 200+ kills on my warden and MP. All the shotgun ammo for the nords needs to be more accurate, currently only 1 spear or arrow goes near where they aim it, the others fall short uselessly. The game should be harder, we kill the strongest nord gods daily without thought because there is no longer any challenge. Maybe it's time for a harder mode than ragnorok that even the best teams will struggle with.

[Malong]

[quote author=Slayer link=topic=45644.msg240242#msg240242 date=1440432875]
Ranged is still OP regardless of the map.

As a player who has 3 ranged characters, I agree they need a nerf. I feel like I barely try and get 200+ kills on my warden and MP.
[/quote]
As a player who has 3 ranged characters, I disagree that they need a nerf. I feel like last night we were on Ragnarok on The Great Hall*, and you had about 160 kills (25% short of the minimum to be 200+) and was only about 25 more kills than a level 39 crossbowman (me). Either way, even if kills equated power of a class, think of the factors that enable kills: a shield wall allowing ranged to hit bots with no danger outside of peeking, a map with ample windows or places, the amount of time where ranged classes can hit bots with no danger. And let's be honest, number of kills can easily be hyper-inflated by aiming for the bots that you know are going to die in one shot. A good example is normal where anyone with a decent weapon can rack up kills by just quickly spamming body shots instead of being concerned with accuracy and head shots, or a legionnaire with a decent weapon and armor just spamming slash because they're sure they can one-shot most bots and know that their armor will prevent them from taking the sufficient damage to die that wave.

* Also note that in this game, we would have died if it was not for a developer logging onto his developer character to force spawn (twice) on wave 16. If ranged was so overpowered regardless of map, and beating Ragnarok was a given, then why did we need to essentially get help outside of typical game mechanics to win? It's a rhetorical question, don't bother answering.

[FV_HappyMonk3y99]

[quote author=FV_HappyMonk3y99 link=topic=45644.msg240243#msg240243 date=1440434080]
[quote author=Slayer link=topic=45644.msg240242#msg240242 date=1440432875]
Ranged is still OP regardless of the map.

As a player who has 3 ranged characters, I agree they need a nerf. I feel like I barely try and get 200+ kills on my warden and MP.
[/quote]
As a player who has 3 ranged characters, I disagree that they need a nerf. I feel like last night we were on Ragnarok on The Great Hall*, and you had about 160 kills (25% short of the minimum to be 200+) and was only about 25 more kills than a level 39 crossbowman (me). Either way, even if kills equated power of a class, think of the factors that enable kills: a shield wall allowing ranged to hit bots with no danger outside of peeking, a map with ample windows or places, the amount of time where ranged classes can hit bots with no danger. And let's be honest, number of kills can easily be hyper-inflated by aiming for the bots that you know are going to die in one shot. A good example is normal where anyone with a decent weapon can rack up kills by just quickly spamming body shots instead of being concerned with accuracy and head shots, or a legionnaire with a decent weapon and armor just spamming slash because they're sure they can one-shot most bots and know that their armor will prevent them from taking the sufficient damage to die that wave.

* Also note that in this game, we would have died if it was not for a developer logging onto his developer character to force spawn (twice) on wave 16. If ranged was so overpowered regardless of map, and beating Ragnarok was a given, then why did we need to essentially get help outside of typical game mechanics to win? It's a rhetorical question, don't bother answering.
[/quote]
I feel like arguing, we nearly wiped due to the shielders being out of range of healers, not due to a lack of strength of any class

[Malong]

I feel like arguing, we nearly wiped due to the shielders being out of range of healers, not due to a lack of strength of any class

You neglect to mention that the Chosen walked through the shield wall gaps and hit the shielders and interrupt ranged, which lends credence to this from the previous post:

[T]hink of the factors that enable kills: a shield wall allowing ranged to hit bots with no danger outside of peeking

Therefore for ranged dps classes to reach their potential, they have to not be interrupted. This follows the classic RPG paradigm where ranged dps classes have to be uninterrupted to be particularly useful. Even when one or two Chosen walk through the shield wall, it falls apart. If a class is reliant on multiple contributions of other players and factors, then by definition, it's not overpowered.

I also notice you chose not to respond to my other points, and will take that as your concessions to those points.

[Ribbed]

[quote author=FV_HappyMonk3y99 link=topic=45644.msg240251#msg240251 date=1440439016]
I feel like arguing, we nearly wiped due to the shielders being out of range of healers, not due to a lack of strength of any class

You neglect to mention that the Chosen walked through the shield wall gaps and hit the shielders and interrupt ranged, which lends credence to this from the previous post:

[T]hink of the factors that enable kills: a shield wall allowing ranged to hit bots with no danger outside of peeking

Therefore for ranged dps classes to reach their potential, they have to not be interrupted. This follows the classic RPG paradigm where ranged dps classes have to be uninterrupted to be particularly useful. Even when one or two Chosen walk through the shield wall, it falls apart. If a class is reliant on multiple contributions of other players and factors, then by definition, it's not overpowered.

I also notice you chose not to respond to my other points, and will take that as your concessions to those points.
[/quote]

Well going by this definition - the reintroduction of kiting would make ranged overpowered.

[Malong]

[quote author=Malong link=topic=45644.msg240255#msg240255 date=1440441258]
[quote author=FV_HappyMonk3y99 link=topic=45644.msg240251#msg240251 date=1440439016]
I feel like arguing, we nearly wiped due to the shielders being out of range of healers, not due to a lack of strength of any class

You neglect to mention that the Chosen walked through the shield wall gaps and hit the shielders and interrupt ranged, which lends credence to this from the previous post:

[T]hink of the factors that enable kills: a shield wall allowing ranged to hit bots with no danger outside of peeking

Therefore for ranged dps classes to reach their potential, they have to not be interrupted. This follows the classic RPG paradigm where ranged dps classes have to be uninterrupted to be particularly useful. Even when one or two Chosen walk through the shield wall, it falls apart. If a class is reliant on multiple contributions of other players and factors, then by definition, it's not overpowered.

I also notice you chose not to respond to my other points, and will take that as your concessions to those points.
[/quote]

Well going by this definition - the reintroduction of kiting would make ranged overpowered.
[/quote]
What? The factors that enable ranged to reach their potential is the presence of shield walls that prevent ranged from being attacked and interrupted altogether. That's the complete opposite of kiting an open area where pathing, timing, judgment of distance, fast aiming, etc all have to be taken into account to prevent interruption instead of mindlessly shooting behind some meat shields.

[Noidenous]

[quote author=Ribbed link=topic=45644.msg240324#msg240324 date=1440475756]
[quote author=Malong link=topic=45644.msg240255#msg240255 date=1440441258]
[quote author=FV_HappyMonk3y99 link=topic=45644.msg240251#msg240251 date=1440439016]
I feel like arguing, we nearly wiped due to the shielders being out of range of healers, not due to a lack of strength of any class

You neglect to mention that the Chosen walked through the shield wall gaps and hit the shielders and interrupt ranged, which lends credence to this from the previous post:

[T]hink of the factors that enable kills: a shield wall allowing ranged to hit bots with no danger outside of peeking

Therefore for ranged dps classes to reach their potential, they have to not be interrupted. This follows the classic RPG paradigm where ranged dps classes have to be uninterrupted to be particularly useful. Even when one or two Chosen walk through the shield wall, it falls apart. If a class is reliant on multiple contributions of other players and factors, then by definition, it's not overpowered.

I also notice you chose not to respond to my other points, and will take that as your concessions to those points.
[/quote]

Well going by this definition - the reintroduction of kiting would make ranged overpowered.
[/quote]
What? The factors that enable ranged to reach their potential is the presence of shield walls that prevent ranged from being attacked and interrupted altogether. That's the complete opposite of kiting an open area where pathing, timing, judgment of distance, fast aiming, etc all have to be taken into account to prevent interruption instead of mindlessly shooting behind some meat shields.
[/quote]
Kiting is acceptable as long as the archer isn't able to make the necessary space required to spin-shot repeatedly. This is easily countered by reducing all player's run speed to compensate.

Sure, you might be able to kite for as long as a commando can block 20 bots, but any party finding themselves in that position is going to wipe soon, regardless.

There's currently ZERO incentive to stand there with a shield, occasionally switching to the 2nd or 3rd shield held in inventory... other than some sycophantic access to a House's goodies.

[Soviet]

This is easily countered by reducing all player's run speed to compensate.

woah there satan