Application for the return of item left in house trust

[Soviet]

I have been watching this thread for a while now and the main problem I am seeing is trying to figure out whether the item, the Durendal afaik, was actually an item of Madjosh and whether this item was gifted or loaned to the bank.

I have seen OP delivering evidence of the purchase of the Durendal, 28th of March 2015, which I can confirm.

However I think it is more OPs problem for not providing evidence whether the Durendal was gifted to the bank or if it was loaned. Anyone could say a gifted item was once a loan to undo a donation.

Have you been watching this thread for a while? You seemingly missed this:

Here's the chat log (and apparently the chat history since then):

Code:

*** Chat begins 2018-02-25 00:30:43
...
<00:42:21> Woody: well idk care about paying a det
...

---

Now I see that compensation for the lost item has been offered, yet has been refused. The value of the compensation compared to the value of a Durendal back in the day (March 2016) seems okayish to me, possibly more compensation has been offered then necessary, but whatever, you can't expect to get a compensation that matches the current value of a Durendal.

I honestly hope you don't think those junk items are ample compensation for a Durendal, whatever your theoretical value of them may be.

---

While selling stuff of others without their permission is forbidden, the example provided by Soviet actually contains evidence that the items provided to the player were indeed loaned, which I am failing to see in this thread.

The example I provided shows someone being banned for selling items belonging to someone else. Woody referred to it as a de[b]t, so clearly he knew the item belongs to Madjosh.

[DR.]

So when I was given the bank I ask is there anything I can't trade?

The answer was apart from the ags and his pike gear as qoute "it may as well be called bank gear" giving its own identity. If a vlka member was to return he could use bank gear however what you want is different.

When I become leader stag brass set barrel and moj was taken from the bank and Ben account. Gessing being salty you don't want me to have access to gear I already owned? It does not hurt me at all once again for the 2nd no 3rd time it hurts vlka members that's why I can no I will put up a fight to say you are getting nothing so far.

Btw why did you not take the dur out of the bank then? Or is this a change of mind or something else that could possibly end with a punishment for trying to steel gear. Now that would be funny.

[Malong]

Btw why did you not take the dur out of the bank then?

Brennanx told me he will post, but time zone differences, etc are delaying it. Choice excerpt from the conversation I had with him last night.

6:10 PM - Brennanx: I'll have a read, I remember I got mjolnir and stag bow out
6:10 PM - Brennanx: but the other items were missing
6:10 PM - darkpck: thanks for your time. madjosh remembered durendal was one of them, but it's been a mess trying to get it.
6:11 PM - Brennanx: Yea, I took my own stag out and woody complained to benschie who then changed the PW of vlkabank
6:11 PM - Brennanx: Durrendal was a bunch of josh's stuff and something of mine
6:12 PM - Brennanx: I'll see if I can get on my account and post

[Winter]

The example I provided shows someone being banned for selling items belonging to someone else. Woody referred to it as a de[b]t, so clearly he knew the item belongs to Madjosh.

Woody referring to it as a debt in a conversation with PCK only proves that he acknowledges it as originally belonging to Madjosh now.  It does not mean he knew it when it was sold.  The case you brought up has logs of the recipient who later sold the item being expressly informed that the items in the trade are for borrowing, not selling.  In this case, Woody claims to have been unaware that the Durendal belonged to Madjosh when he sold it (I was told that the item was improperly marked in the bank document, so return to Kaasovic's statement that VLKA could use some better record keeping...) and I have seen no evidence to the contrary so far.

It would be nice if actual logs of Benschie's handing over of VLKA bank to Woody were made available, or, even better, if Benschie himself could weigh in on this.  I'm not sure how he'd feel about VLKA's attitude towards a well-standing, long-time, dedicated member like Madjosh in this situation.

[Kaasovic]

I have been watching this thread for a while now and the main problem I am seeing is trying to figure out whether the item, the Durendal afaik, was actually an item of Madjosh and whether this item was gifted or loaned to the bank.

I have seen OP delivering evidence of the purchase of the Durendal, 28th of March 2015, which I can confirm.

However I think it is more OPs problem for not providing evidence whether the Durendal was gifted to the bank or if it was loaned. Anyone could say a gifted item was once a loan to undo a donation.

Have you been watching this thread for a while? You seemingly missed this:

Here's the chat log (and apparently the chat history since then):

Code:

*** Chat begins 2018-02-25 00:30:43
...
<00:42:21> Woody: well idk care about paying a det
...

---

Now I see that compensation for the lost item has been offered, yet has been refused. The value of the compensation compared to the value of a Durendal back in the day (March 2016) seems okayish to me, possibly more compensation has been offered then necessary, but whatever, you can't expect to get a compensation that matches the current value of a Durendal.

I honestly hope you don't think those junk items are ample compensation for a Durendal, whatever your theoretical value of them may be.

---

While selling stuff of others without their permission is forbidden, the example provided by Soviet actually contains evidence that the items provided to the player were indeed loaned, which I am failing to see in this thread.

The example I provided shows someone being banned for selling items belonging to someone else. Woody referred to it as a de[b]t, so clearly he knew the item belongs to Madjosh.

I think we all know that Woody isn't the best in picking words, no offence, however it still doesn't change the fact that decisive evidence has been given.
While being in debt ("a state of being under obligation to pay or repay someone or something in return for something received"(debt)), could refer to a moral decision. According to Madjosh him self, a couple of posts back, he was a generous player that helped the bank take shape, could that be a reason why he is being compensated. Sorry, but without any contract being shown I find it hard to believe that the item was indeed a loan and was never supposed to be traded.
Isn't it common sense to setup a contract between two or more parties when an item is loaned to one other? Especially in NordInvasion where the community has some rats among them.

A compensation is an compensation. Value based it seems okay and at least an afford is made to compensate OP. With the item gone you can't honestly think one would magically appear do you? Oh and also, one man's junk is another man's treasure. Doesn't OP have only a few items in his possession now? This would at least be a nice new starting capital to build something up, or is he peer pressured by you and your emotional opinion to only get items you and your shopmates want?

[Malong]

With the item gone you can't honestly think one would magically appear do you?...[I]s he peer pressured by you and your emotional opinion to only get items you and your shopmates want?

Reply to first sentence: Absolutely correct, so in a private message, I previously requested the trace of the history for the items for which it eventually became. It seemed better than an offering of random items that seem to have had no connection to the original item which was taken.

Reply to second sentence: This is way off base, and has nothing to do with anyone's shop.

[DR.]

The example I provided shows someone being banned for selling items belonging to someone else. Woody referred to it as a de[b]t, so clearly he knew the item belongs to Madjosh.

Woody referring to it as a debt in a conversation with PCK only proves that he acknowledges it as originally belonging to Madjosh now.  It does not mean he knew it when it was sold.  The case you brought up has logs of the recipient who later sold the item being expressly informed that the items in the trade are for borrowing, not selling.  In this case, Woody claims to have been unaware that the Durendal belonged to Madjosh when he sold it (I was told that the item was improperly marked in the bank document, so return to Kaasovic's statement that VLKA could use some better record keeping...) and I have seen no evidence to the contrary so far.

It would be nice if actual logs of Benschie's handing over of VLKA bank to Woody were made available, or, even better, if Benschie himself could weigh in on this.  I'm not sure how he'd feel about VLKA's attitude towards a well-standing, long-time, dedicated member like Madjosh in this situation.

I don't now if madjosh owns it I'm waiting for evidence that a dev could see or I would believe. 

It seems every one has misinformation/has not understand why I worded my conversation with pck. Playing the mule or just going along with trades is something I do when I feel like it could give me more information about my target. That should be obvious to anyone that's good in trading. I can tell you I got the basic info that you would only except stuff of your choosing and not my own. Just that is a red flag for me... getting paid anything would be sufficient yet trying to ask for shit the bank does not have or does not want to sell is ridiculous when the claim is so week. 

Vlka doc has been updated to the best we can do. Sure all of the gear came from some were in the beginning but that was lost before I was even in vlka. Before I joined there was no up-to-date list for who owns what just what Ben told me and even then he was not sure about most of the stuff other than his own.

Logs of me becoming leader and having access the the bank are lost to steam records. As it was what 2016? I know I made the vlkamats I'd and it was not Ben that changed the pw. I will show this to Ben but his already seen it 

His just as clue less as we all are to who owns what atm. We agree it could be a possibility he owns it but I, the active vlka members and ben think we would still want better evidence rather than a he/she said. So far the arguments could be made by almost any old vlka member and once again I would have no idea if there was any turth to the claim. For most old vlka people this would not be a problem as if they are still in vlka I would let them use more gear.



It's 5am so gl reading. I will fix major mistakes tomorrow if need be.

[Kaasovic]

With the item gone you can't honestly think one would magically appear do you?...[I]s he peer pressured by you and your emotional opinion to only get items you and your shopmates want?

Reply to first sentence: Absolutely correct, so in a private message, I previously requested the trace of the history for the items for which it eventually became. It seemed better than an offering of random items that seem to have had no connection to the original item which was taken.

Reply to second sentence: This is way off base, and has nothing to do with anyone's shop.

So if profit was made on the Durendal trade you wish to receive all the items acquired in that trade?
I know a comparison between a virtual NordInvasion bank and a real bank might be a bit unrealistic, but what they share in common; they use other people funds to try to make profitable trades.

I was assuming the correlation between Madjosh and your shop, because of the pro-Madjosh support. Doesn't change the fact that Soviet refers to them as "junk" items which gives me the indication that the items acquired will not stay in one inventory for a long time. I can also recall Madjosh saying, in Teamspeak, I'll try to get the Durendal for you, or somewhat related. However this shouldn't not be used in this case since it was not recorded, so it can't serve as evidence.

[Winter]

It seems every one has misinformation/has not understand why I worded my conversation with pck. Playing the mule or just going along with trades is something I do when I feel like it could give me more information about my target. That should be obvious to anyone that's good in trading. I can tell you I got the basic info that you would only except stuff of your choosing and not my own. Just that is a red flag for me... getting paid anything would be sufficient yet trying to ask for shit the bank does not have or does not want to sell is ridiculous when the claim is so week.

You should not treat paying someone back for an item you sold without knowing it was theirs as a trade...  (Yes, I know that the Durendal was technically part of someone else's trade, but you, as the leader, approved them buying it from the bank, and thus you are held responsible).
The claim is not weak, I had already made it clear at that point that the Durendal belonged to Madjosh.

We agree it could be a possibility he owns it but I, the active vlka members and ben think we would still want better evidence rather than a he/she said. So far the arguments could be made by almost any old vlka member and once again I would have no idea if there was any turth to the claim. For most old vlka people this would not be a problem as if they are still in vlka I would let them use more gear.

Let me make this perfectly clear - the Durendal originally belonged to Madjosh and was loaned throughout the bank.  The bank never bought it from him and he never formally donated it to my knowledge (some form of logging on the part of either side could be helpful here).

At this point, the previous verdict stands: the developer team will not get involved in forcing repayment due to faulty record keeping on the part of the parties involved and no one acting with malicious intent, but morally Woody should feel obligated to repay them through VLKA bank for the mistake in record keeping, as the item sold did belong to Madjosh.

The thread will remain open for Brennanx's statement and the possibility of other information coming forward, but at this point the situation seems to be pretty clear - a simple mistake in record keeping led to an item being sold without knowing who it actually belonged to.  The trade happened several months ago, but the mistake in record keeping likely happened over a year ago.  I advise everyone to be very wary of who they loan items to in the future, and would like for anyone considering doing so to understand that they do it at their own risk.  In simple cases with clear documentation where an item was obviously stolen the developers may intervene, but not in something like this.

[Madjosh]

Thanks for your time winter, and an understandable approach, it would be dangerous for the development to team set a precedent on forced compensation for mishandled items.

However, it is an equally dangerous precedent to allow ostensibly poor record keeping to justify dubious transactions, especially when you must admit the party who wrong did had walked out of this room having benefited entirely without punishment from the misdoing.

In my time at VLKA, record keeping was not an issue and everyone knew whose items belonged to whom. Woody even belonged to the house a short while that i was still in it. When I left the house, Woody contacted you/reported me to check ownership of items that belonged to me. It goes without saying that he could have easily contacted you again to check where the item he ostensibly believed to have come from thin air actually came from. He did not do this, to the best of my knowledge, he made no attempt to perceive whom the item belonged to.

I believe this to be the nail in the coffin in Woody's defence. 

Had he made just and relevant enquires to where the item came from and discovered nothing, I would stand to say that he had done enough to satisfy any requirement of attempting to locate the relevant owner and I would not be here right now writing this lengthy response. 


Because he did not do this, because he sold the item with what i believe to be the full knowledge that it did not belong to him I would suggest to you that he is in violation of the trading rules, in particular rule 3.

In essence, and as stated above, I feel that it would be in the best interests of future matters in line with what has transpired here to set a example of what will happen to people which improperly mishandle items, especially house leaders who are under more obligations to record appropriately which items belong to whom.

To say that a house member would be at fault for not properly recording the ownership details of every item in VLKA and set an example of them instead of the house leadership is in my biased opinion an unfair precedent to set. I had records of the item purchase, at the time we kept a spreadsheet drafted by Handef (former house leadership) which contained an ownership minded itemisation of the bank items. Because new leadership have been more tardy in their management the house members are to pay?

Again, we all have lives and other time-consuming responsibilities, i thank the dev team for taking time out of their schedules to provide a response and discussion to the topic and for the communities input both for and against.