Rise from the Ashes

[Srellian]

This is DPS class quest. Very important one from achievement perspective.

If RG "mains" feels themselves obliterated by this fact I suppose adding shielder-specific quest to do whatever they do instead of breaking it by removing difficulty plank.

Krieg's post is about removing the heavyly competitive aspect of the killing quests and the issues ( kill-stealing, conveniently forgetting to tome, ... ) that it can create, not about helping shielders completing said quests.

[Malong]

I gave you the doubt that you would of been thinking the same way for someone speaking so highly on this topic.

I have no idea what you are trying to express. But anyway, you were clearly trying to poke holes in the idea, and would have gladly taken credit if your idea of not capping the damage based off remaining health was an implementation issue in the idea. You can't have it both ways of trying to discredit something based off misunderstanding the concept, but then simultaneously secretly understanding said concept fully. You didn't even understand that the idea was to change each quest completion point from 500 kills to deal the equivalent damage of the health of 500 of each bot. Stop. Freaking. Lying.

now about instead of everyone has to snatch away those pesky rangers from each other, doing a server wide count, this way when a archer shoots a nord sniper, the shielder gets the kill point aswell.
...
thus quests should act serverwide= removing kill competition of rare bots like siegemasters or chosen champions. this also would encourage actual teamwork more as people would look out more for each other.

Then the kills required would have to be increased heavily, or the rewards reduced heavily. The bottleneck would shift to challenge waves of three bot types (Ragnarok 5, Normal 5, 8, 14), and then it would only take about 75-100 runs of each Normal/Hard/Ragnarok to get 500 of each bot.

[DR.]

I have no idea what you are trying to express. But anyway, you were clearly trying to poke holes in the idea, and would have gladly taken credit if your idea of not capping the damage based off remaining health was an implementation issue in the idea.

Damage taken (should of said bot here)
Damage received (should of said player here)

The idea is not new at all this is just the last time i have suggested it and it has been suggested before from me and others. This idea has been on peoples minds before this quest was even made. You are not the maker of this idea and I'm not either. It's so basic anyone would come up with it and claim they are the 1st to think about it.  


From --> https://forum.nordinvasion.com/showthread.php?tid=71799

I would also give that a read as you say this 

I think the quests should be left as is. People have completed them, so it's obviously not impossible. But also players consistently reference the mod not being "difficult," and yet the moment something is too "difficult" for them to complete, they lose interest or want the bar lowered. Well, fuck that. Those players got what you wanted. Maybe they should focus on these as goals instead of flexing about how they've completed other watered-down objectives. And just on principle, there should be consistent direction. There have been changes to move the goal posts farther rather than closer, so why implement something to make it less time consuming to complete (which doesn't even lower difficulty, but rather the time spent instead)?

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You can't have it both ways of trying to discredit something based off misunderstanding the concept, but then simultaneously secretly understanding said concept fully. You didn't even understand that the idea was to change each quest completion point from 500 kills to deal the equivalent damage of the health of 500 of each bot. Stop. Freaking. Lying.

Ok, let me break down why I hoped you were talking about it being not capped.

It should be abundantly clear I am a min/maxer

Ok... So with this info, I'm sure, you hate runs going for longer than they need to?

For the people that don't understand this if it was wave 13 rag and i need "Siege Master". 
Rather than killing the bot and moving on my aim would be to hit them all then come back and hit them again till they are dead. The idea of putting a cap on it puts a big reason to move to the next bot to get max damage. Not even killing the bot mind you.

If we apply this thinking to all bots the wave just got.

1. longer as people are spending more time trying to jump from bot to bot to get max damage for the quest.
2. harder as the bots have more time to do damage to the cades/shields

Giving you are a min/maxer im sure you would rather the system we have atm or even if it wasn't capped. It's that bad that i was thinking there would be no way he wants this when it goes against his values. 

It does not solve the problem of "kill stealing" it just moves the problem to something else and i would say this. How big is the problem of "kill stealing" atm vs what you have suggested here?    


Kill stealing is a problem just like how to double peeking is a problem may be to a lesser extent but i see them being related. You complain when it happens to you but you don't complain when you do it. A run getting harder and taking more time just from a quest i would say it a hell of a lot worse. To add as well this means some players will beat the quest faster when others will take even longer. Kill stealing is something we need to live with unless a better way is found. The idea of its now hp/damage related is not a better way it's different with its own problems and i would say what we have atm is far better.

[Kaasovic]

I dont think kill stealing is a real problem at the moment, how can one be sure about the health of a bot?

[DR.]

I dont think kill stealing is a real problem at the moment

Agreed. If it is one it's a very very small one.

how can one be sure about the health of a bot?

Seeing the ammo in the bot (throwing weapons/bolts/arrows)

I never have blood on but can that do it?

just remember the location of the bot and hit a different one.


Thats 2/3 ways to do it.



If your not sure that just extends the time of you looking for a clean bot.

[Forward]

This is DPS class quest. Very important one from achievement perspective.

If RG "mains" feels themselves obliterated by this fact I suppose adding shielder-specific quest to do whatever they do instead of breaking it by removing difficulty plank.

Krieg's post is about removing the heavyly competitive aspect of the killing quests and the issues ( kill-stealing, conveniently forgetting to tome, ... ) that it can create, not about helping shielders completing said quests.

I dont think kill stealing is a real problem at the moment, how can one be sure about the health of a bot?

Yes, there is no kill-stealing.

Spoiler

Mainly because Jaeger with his Dead Shot is AFG atm

But I would agree with changing some boss-killing quests from last-hitting to be alive on server to time boss dying, of course with increasing requirements ~10 times. But it's about boss-killing quests, not ashes, which is more DPS class achievement rather then a quest.

[Malong]

Winter, I think we may be heading for "Woody v Malong: The Great 'Rise from the Ashes' Debate." For the record, I blame Falankos for finishing the quest and starting this whole thing. But as a whole, I wish the community would improve at talking about merit.

I have no idea what you are trying to express. But anyway, you were clearly trying to poke holes in the idea, and would have gladly taken credit if your idea of not capping the damage based off remaining health was an implementation issue in the idea.

Damage taken (should of said bot here)
Damage received (should of said player here)

The idea is not new at all this is just the last time i have suggested it and it has been suggested before from me and others. This idea has been on peoples minds before this quest was even made. You are not the maker of this idea and I'm not either. It's so basic anyone would come up with it and claim they are the 1st to think about it.  


From --> https://forum.nordinvasion.com/showthread.php?tid=71799

I would also give that a read as you say this 

1. I never claimed it was a new idea. In fact, I've brought this up multiple before in voice chat.
   
2. I never claimed I was the originator of this idea (though I've also never heard/read anyone else bring this up). People should focus on the content of the suggestion/idea anyway.
   
3. "Damage taken (should [have typed] bot here)" should have been "damage dealt" if you want to convey this idea. Were you incapable of realizing you should have used "dealt?"
   
4. Even after the above point, there is still no indication that you meant "damage dealt to each bot in the game (other than the two added since the quest was created) which sums to the product of 500 of their respective maximum health." You see the difference between the two clauses, right? Probably not, but there is a huge difference to the point that you can't tell us that "damage taken, I mean dealt" is anything close to the same.
   

Ok, let me break down why I hoped you were talking about it being not capped.

In the end, you are attempting to justify how you drew an incorrect conclusion. Remember this?

But if needed I will make a pretty picture to show how my mind worked at that night

Pic coming soon

It's not needed. And in my opinion, humanity would be better served if people instead spent their time analyzing thought processes and modeling the behavior that leads to correct conclusions.

For the people that don't understand this if it was wave 13 rag and i need "Siege Master". 
Rather than killing the bot and moving on my aim would be to hit them all then come back and hit them again till they are dead. The idea of putting a cap on it puts a big reason to move to the next bot to get max damage. Not even killing the bot mind you.

[some irrelevant crap about "runs going for longer"]

This doesn't address the fact that there are bots that take at least three hits for certain classes and weapons. That means (mathematically and undeniably) that those players are dealing less than 50% with each hit, thus you still want more than one hit on a bot. It also doesn't address the fact that when you only need quest credit for some of the bots in the wave, you are still incentivized to attack those bots rather than any other bot, agnostic of bots' remaining health. Your theoretical player still wants to hit the damaged Siege Master over the full health Einherjar Sniper, for example. Granted, they might favor hitting a full health Siege Master over a damaged one. At this point, the game state moves to a point where the only Siege Masters remaining are damaged; at this point, your theoretical player tries to attack the damaged Siege Masters. After that, the game state moves to a point where all Siege Masters are dead. Do we know for a fact that once this game state is reached, those players then AFK in the back and type something to the effect of "all my bots are killed, you guys handle the rest?" This has not been established. We also know that the current payoff for quest credit is 100% in getting the last hit. The current analogous optimal play pattern to get the most advantage is to wait for a bot to be damaged to the point that their next hit kills the bot before attacking it. We don't see this behavior currently. And all of this also ignores the fact that the few players that care about the quest already aim for the bots that spawn on few waves. Despite this, we have yet to see "runs going for longer."

Even if you have a screenshot of the above "all my bots are killed" statement being typed, how many players have this attitude? To use Falankos as an example, there was at least a month where he only needed bots on Ragnarok waves 13 and 14, and yet he played entire games getting kills on every wave up to and after 13 and 14 for no credit. He certainly didn't wait in spectator until wave 13 spawn, nor go AFK in the back until wave 13. Supposing that at least one player has this attitude where they only care about quest completion: what measurable effect would this does it have on the duration of a game? There is absolutely no evidence that changing kills of each bot to damage dealt to each bot equal to 500 times its maximum health will lead to a game taking longer to complete. This doesn't take into account the fact that few players care about the quest in the first place (five have completed the quest so far, and far more than five people in the community play multiple classes not prioritizing their quest progress) and thus don't modify their behavior to maximize the benefits.

Anyway, none of this disproves the fact that if you understood basic concepts like "the quest goal should be to deal the equivalent damage of 500 of each bots' health," and "I can't deal more damage than the amount of health a bot has remaining," you would never have posted these below, especially the bolded parts that show your lack of understanding of the suggestion. So... Stop. Lying.

Using the command to show damage people would find the most valuable bot on each wave and aim for that 1st always. This is not mentioning certain modes (normal/beginner) and some heros would have a steep advantage. Guess it would be quests for each mode.

Let's say I have some thing with low damage like a bow. If I hit a bot for 52% with the 1st hit then "55%" again.

If I have an xbow and hit a bot for 95%  I have the chance I may hit that bot again for almost 200% or whatever. Therefore I can get more damage out of a single wave. I would guess by the time a sniper could get up to some certain amount of damage a the xbow maybe slower off the mark but it could possibly catch up and overtake rapidly. 

I dont think kill stealing is a real problem at the moment, how can one be sure about the health of a bot?

I know you're probably not directing this towards me, but to make fully clear: My first post in this discussion (not first of the thread) just states this would make it "unquestionably equitable." I even typed that "it probably evens out." However I know implementation of mechanics in this mod very rarely takes merit into consideration. Quick text search of this thread shows that of the previous posts, only Woody's contain "problem" and one of Srellian's contains "issue." Again:

Over a long course of time, it probably evens out such that getting no credit from someone else getting the last hit to that player getting the last hit over someone else; but basing credit off damage would make it unquestionably equitable.

[DR.]

This doesn't address the fact that there are bots that take at least three hits for certain classes and weapons. That means (mathematically and undeniably) that those players are dealing less than 50% with each hit, thus you still want more than one hit on a bot. It also doesn't address the fact that when you only need quest credit for some of the bots in the wave, you are still incentivized to attack those bots rather than any other bot, agnostic of bots' remaining health. Your theoretical player still wants to hit the damaged Siege Master over the full health Einherjar Sniper, for example. Granted, they might favor hitting a full health Siege Master over a damaged one. At this point, the game state moves to a point where the only Siege Masters remaining are damaged; at this point, your theoretical player tries to attack the damaged Siege Masters. After that, the game state moves to a point where all Siege Masters are dead. Do we know for a fact that once this game state is reached, those players then AFK in the back and type something to the effect of "all my bots are killed, you guys handle the rest?" This has not been established. We also know that the current payoff for quest credit is 100% in getting the last hit. The current analogous optimal play pattern to get the most advantage is to wait for a bot to be damaged to the point that their next hit kills the bot before attacking it. We don't see this behavior currently. And all of this also ignores the fact that the few players that care about the quest already aim for the bots that spawn on few waves. Despite this, we have yet to see "runs going for longer."

Even if you have a screenshot of the above "all my bots are killed" statement being typed, how many players have this attitude? To use Falankos as an example, there was at least a month where he only needed bots on Ragnarok waves 13 and 14, and yet he played entire games getting kills on every wave up to and after 13 and 14 for no credit. He certainly didn't wait in spectator until wave 13 spawn, nor go AFK in the back until wave 13. Supposing that at least one player has this attitude where they only care about quest completion: what measurable effect would this does it have on the duration of a game? There is absolutely no evidence that changing kills of each bot to damage dealt to each bot equal to 500 times its maximum health will lead to a game taking longer to complete. This doesn't take into account the fact that few players care about the quest in the first place (five have completed the quest so far, and far more than five people in the community play multiple classes not prioritizing their quest progress) and thus don't modify their behavior to maximize the benefits.

Anyway, none of this disproves the fact that if you understood basic concepts like "the quest goal should be to deal the equivalent damage of 500 of each bots' health," and "I can't deal more damage than the amount of health a bot has remaining," you would never have posted these below, especially the bolded parts that show your lack of understanding of the suggestion. So... Stop. Lying.

At what point did I say this player stops after getting the kills they need? If someone needs all bots in rag which is most people still it just expanded my point to more bots.

Siege Master --> Nord Chosen Champion --> Einherjar Pikeman --> etc (in whatever order is easiest for that class and what you need for the quest the most)

"Not even killing the bot mind you." is in reference to it being about damage and not about killing the bot.

Let's say someone says "We need help at the cades" 
ATM if its bots you need is at the cades well your already trying to kill them I hope. With it being about damage/hp it would be more efficient to get the bots no one else is aiming for. With slashers or not even in mind the best bet would be aiming for the bots that are farthest away from the cades as they will be more likely to still have full Hp. 

Atm it's more efficient to work as a team were some "kill stealing" may take place.

vs

Were it would be efficient to work alone and try to hit every bot before anyone else does.


I'm not going to bring up some bots heal each other so do you expect the Dev team to code a cutoff point for how much damage you can get out of a bot?

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An Xbow can 1 hit some bots when bows need a good amount more than 1. This is part of the reason why you pick Xbow. Xbow is probably better for rag but the tradeoff is sniper is better at normal then you have pikeman in the middle (big generalization).

Its the same with weapons If i have a Typhoon yes it's probably better at rag as it may be the difference between a bot needing 4 arrows vs 5. Tempest has the speed to outdo Typhoon on normal without a doubt and i would guess hard till some of the later bots. Some classes/weapons have speed and others have damage or some were in the middle. Each one has its downsides and benefits. 

Overall i find atm the quicker the weapon is the more easily you can "kill steal". That's a big generalization as at some points i find you do need the damage. Like i find the stats for Typhoon and Tempest to be equivalent other than flight speed.  
  

Saying some classes or weapons can 1 shot thing is one point but in the same line, the fact needs to be what is that class and does it have any downsides like speed? Daggers and Alia are were i think the start should be almost.
Daggers we all know at this point a nerf is coming so don't really need to bring it up but i guess i can. The speed of daggers is ridiculous makes peeking a joke and bosses look like statues. In saying this i still want them to be the fastest thing in the game but at greater cost to 1st flight speed, 2nd damage and ammo 3rd. Alia i don't like but i can understand why people like it. Having that much speed and still having over 100p with almost no downsides. I'm not going to suggest a nerf as i have used that weapon less than steel stinger. Someone that's not biased can look into it and see if it needs some sort of change. 

I know you're probably not directing this towards me, but to make fully clear: My first post in this discussion (not first of the thread) just states this would make it "unquestionably equitable." I even typed that "it probably evens out." However I know implementation of mechanics in this mod very rarely takes merit into consideration. Quick text search of this thread shows that of the previous posts, only Woody's contain "problem" and one of Srellian's contains "issue." Again:

Kill stealing is a problem just like how to double peeking is a problem may be to a lesser extent but i see them being related. You complain when it happens to you but you don't complain when you do it.

Once again if its a problem it's so small who really gives a fuck.

Over a long course of time, it probably evens out such that getting no credit from someone else getting the last hit to that player getting the last hit over someone else; but basing credit off damage would make it unquestionably equitable.

Nope. It would lead to a greater gap in the number of people that do the quest and the ones that don't.

"Kill stealing" once again.

Kill stealing is a problem just like how to double peeking is a problem may be to a lesser extent but i see them being related. You complain when it happens to you but you don't complain when you do it.

Occam's Razor. The quest is fine or very close to it. This "fix" just adds more problems. A change in whats needed in the quest would be more beneficial to players then in what way you accomplish it. 

The changes i said here would affect more people for the better --> https://forum.nordinvasion.com/showthread.php?tid=71799.

Altho why work on trying to change this quest when time can be put in to make others better or to make new ones.

What I want out of quests

To be rewarded for either playing a lot on 1 id or be rewarded for making more than 1 hero. Let the player choose.

To have goals that always feel unreachable but some that feel achievable

(Add meme about what's faction points)

Quests for things that are not killing.
Like
Heals
Shielding
Crafting
Have ative house members?
Headshots
Damage taken 
Damage received
Waves completed

[Forward]

It's not "kill stealing" anyway. It's called competition.

If you're playing casually and don't enjoy competition this quest is not for you.

[Ken_Repeaterman]

51% Repeaterman
Probably my grandchildren will finish this work