Aventurier Armor (NOW WITH PICTURES)

[DR.]

short --> https://youtu.be/TygCBH9BgqU

long --> https://youtu.be/FTAuKAINWXA

That should do it

[Terath]

One-handed crossbow sounds like something which could work, but I doubt that too. And balancing it would be nightmare too.

Balancing would be a nightmare implying you would call the class op at some point.

I would end it there.

Exactly. It's like increasing Jugg bonus HP. Until some point it will be same shit as before and after some point you will have every Rag with 16 Juggs in it.

What are you on about? We already have rag runs it's been only one main class.

Warden or mp or cm or repeater... take your pick and I can list the last time I was surrounded by them.

Look at games like csgo more than half of the guns don't get used in real competitive but recently there has been changes. When Aug got a decrease in price so that it was $50 more than the M4 it became the most used counter terrorist weapon in that major. If you have not played cs or don't understand it would be like if ranger was getting out played vs warden. After that it got a nerf back up to the normal price it was but it till got picked from professionals. It's an amazing effect of people saying only use this but never trying the other options.

Even now it's been nerfed again but buffed in a small way. I would put money on them looking at other guns ATM. Best bet I'm thinking of dual berettas all the PP bizon. Both are dog shit but will small changes things would change.

It's the same with heros atm how do you truly get to judge a class that you've never played. Yes you can eyeball stats like all the nerds in Counter-Strike did... In the end it real world testing is what makes or breaks things.


ATM some classes need help so let them have help. If you don't plan to play them after the changes or don't worry it's not going to affect your heroes stats anyway.

Still more then one Juggernaut... Problem is you can't make Jugg viable let's say on Rag by not making him OP on hard. It's not skill-class, it's completely based on innate stats. It's not as good as player playing him, it's as good as many HP Kaasovic will add to him.

Have no idea about CS:GO, I don't play it.

Are you implying that Warden / MP isn't currently OP on hard? Both of them absolutely shred most waves. They get more kills than Juggernaut ever will on Hard because of how easy it is to kill Hard mode bots for those two classes. Are you so blind judging other classes and how "OP" they are when you're playing the most meta and OP classes? I literally do not understand. Infantry is the highest risk class, always, because they actually have to be interacting with the enemy. Does that not make it the highest skill class, due to being the highest risk? I guarantee you there is a massive difference between a bad infantry player and a good infantry player, just like how there is a massive difference between a good and bad archer. Infantry players know that there is a lot more to fighting a bot in melee than just whacking them. Knowing the reach of your weapon and how to space yourself correctly is incredibly important, alongside knowing how to pick your battles and how to fully utilize your hero. Saying that Juggernaut entirely relies on his extra HP is 100% incorrect, and is a disservice to the class. It's an entirely different playstyle; you still have to be really careful just like a Zweihander or Legionnaire would. Using end-game gear, the game is balanced around Ragnarok, not hard. Most classes with end-game gear will destroy Normal and Hard mode, no matter how bad or good the actual class is, so this point is moot anyways.

Using your logic: Warden isn't a skill class, it has higher innate stats than all of the other archer heroes. Therefore it has a lower skill requirement, yes? Wouldn't it make you a more skilled player to have the same amount of kills on a Ranger against a Warden? You can say this for any class with something over another class. Royal Guard vs Pavise? Pavise requires more skill because it has lower shielding, so you have to manage your shield better. Hoplite vs Halberdier? Halberdier is harder to play, since Hoplite has potentially the highest damaging melee weapon in the game. This viewpoint is very skewed and does nothing in defense of Jugg being """op""", because it's really not.

I believe you look at the game backwards. If the current game supports mostly ranged DPS-stacking play, the game should change to accomodate the other classes instead of leaving them behind. Can't believe I'm saying this, but I agree with Woody. If some classes need help, so be it. It's not like it will affect your tower defense simulator anyways.

[Forward]

Balancing would be a nightmare implying you would call the class op at some point.

I would end it there.

Exactly. It's like increasing Jugg bonus HP. Until some point it will be same shit as before and after some point you will have every Rag with 16 Juggs in it.

What are you on about? We already have rag runs it's been only one main class.

Warden or mp or cm or repeater... take your pick and I can list the last time I was surrounded by them.

Look at games like csgo more than half of the guns don't get used in real competitive but recently there has been changes. When Aug got a decrease in price so that it was $50 more than the M4 it became the most used counter terrorist weapon in that major. If you have not played cs or don't understand it would be like if ranger was getting out played vs warden. After that it got a nerf back up to the normal price it was but it till got picked from professionals. It's an amazing effect of people saying only use this but never trying the other options.

Even now it's been nerfed again but buffed in a small way. I would put money on them looking at other guns ATM. Best bet I'm thinking of dual berettas all the PP bizon. Both are dog shit but will small changes things would change.

It's the same with heros atm how do you truly get to judge a class that you've never played. Yes you can eyeball stats like all the nerds in Counter-Strike did... In the end it real world testing is what makes or breaks things.


ATM some classes need help so let them have help. If you don't plan to play them after the changes or don't worry it's not going to affect your heroes stats anyway.

Still more then one Juggernaut... Problem is you can't make Jugg viable let's say on Rag by not making him OP on hard. It's not skill-class, it's completely based on innate stats. It's not as good as player playing him, it's as good as many HP Kaasovic will add to him.

Have no idea about CS:GO, I don't play it.

Are you implying that Warden / MP isn't currently OP on hard? Both of them absolutely shred most waves. They get more kills than Juggernaut ever will on Hard because of how easy it is to kill Hard mode bots for those two classes. Are you so blind judging other classes and how "OP" they are when you're playing the most meta and OP classes? I literally do not understand. Infantry is the highest risk class, always, because they actually have to be interacting with the enemy. Does that not make it the highest skill class, due to being the highest risk? I guarantee you there is a massive difference between a bad infantry player and a good infantry player, just like how there is a massive difference between a good and bad archer. Infantry players know that there is a lot more to fighting a bot in melee than just whacking them. Knowing the reach of your weapon and how to space yourself correctly is incredibly important, alongside knowing how to pick your battles and how to fully utilize your hero. Saying that Juggernaut entirely relies on his extra HP is 100% incorrect, and is a disservice to the class. It's an entirely different playstyle; you still have to be really careful just like a Zweihander or Legionnaire would. Using end-game gear, the game is balanced around Ragnarok, not hard. Most classes with end-game gear will destroy Normal and Hard mode, no matter how bad or good the actual class is, so this point is moot anyways.

Using your logic: Warden isn't a skill class, it has higher innate stats than all of the other archer heroes. Therefore it has a lower skill requirement, yes? Wouldn't it make you a more skilled player to have the same amount of kills on a Ranger against a Warden? You can say this for any class with something over another class. Royal Guard vs Pavise? Pavise requires more skill because it has lower shielding, so you have to manage your shield better. Hoplite vs Halberdier? Halberdier is harder to play, since Hoplite has potentially the highest damaging melee weapon in the game. This viewpoint is very skewed and does nothing in defense of Jugg being """op""", because it's really not.

I believe you look at the game backwards. If the current game supports mostly ranged DPS-stacking play, the game should change to accomodate the other classes instead of leaving them behind. Can't believe I'm saying this, but I agree with Woody. If some classes need help, so be it. It's not like it will affect your tower defense simulator anyways.

I never said Jugg is OP, I just said I don't see how make it viable, because adding HP doesn't help. Moreover I don't even see why making viable rather then how. I don't see how Jugg concept fits 'tower defence simulator' at all tbh. But it's a topic for separate thread.

Difficulty actually is more or less irrelevant topic. You should kill bots fast and efficient and it only matters. Non-slashing infantry efficiency is low and it's what prevents free-roaming Jugg from happen, not difficulty. Difficulty of meleeing bots in non-comparable with M&B PvP of some other mods anyway.

If you want to make Aventurier viable, you can try it, of course. But imho should be something more then armour to make it works. One-handed crossbows maybe could work, again.

[DR.]

Just because you can't see how to make something viable dose not mean others see it the same as you.

Out of all the request for changing this class most of the people that have it want this class to be able to kite or just be faster.

This change is small and it's at the top of the list. Next best would be helping him use that 1h... Shields and good shield skill. (8).

I'm not even saying anything new at this point

[Kriegstofu]

I really like this idea of having those 1 handed crossbows, warband conquest has already dark elvish 1h crossbows, and natives pistol works pretty much like you described above, reloading while walking (but not running), so all it would need is basically another animation, sound (if it won't use those modern swadian fire-crossbow-invention thingy aka flintlocks)

Maybe making it possible to use those one handed crossbows in an alternative mode, so that there can be a more accurate two handed shot, while the one handed is less accurate yet just still as powerful. (longer reload time one handed aswell?)
Removing too much damage from these one handed crossbows makes them too similar in damage rating of javelins/arrows


As for making Crossbow Gloves/Boots and the problem with players owning  Swadian Boots / Gauntlets / Studded Gauntlets, just like there was a possibility to change a swadian great helmet to a swadian helmet in the past (as there was some change in helmets. The other possibility would be to make "Studded" Boots , that can be used by the same classes that can use the studded gaunts. also adding lightened swadian gaunts/boots //helmets (//for inf) to compliment other armor parts is an easy fix to this issue. Another way would be to allow transmutation of similar armors (Studdeds to noble gaunts, elmwood bow to ebony ...)


EDIT: i just overflew one full page of replies, to what woody said, it is just as viable to just make those small changes mentioned above, yet the thing about 1handed crossbow surely brings some attention. (people love firearms. so why not give the old swadian technology an upgrade?)

[DR.]

I really like this idea of having those 1 handed crossbows, warband conquest has already dark elvish 1h crossbows, and natives pistol works pretty much like you described above, reloading while walking (but not running), so all it would need is basically another animation, sound (if it won't use those modern swadian fire-crossbow-invention thingy aka flintlocks)

Maybe making it possible to use those one handed crossbows in an alternative mode, so that there can be a more accurate two handed shot, while the one handed is less accurate yet just still as powerful. (longer reload time one handed aswell?)
Removing too much damage from these one handed crossbows makes them too similar in damage rating of javelins/arrows


As for making Crossbow Gloves/Boots and the problem with players owning  Swadian Boots / Gauntlets / Studded Gauntlets, just like there was a possibility to change a swadian great helmet to a swadian helmet in the past (as there was some change in helmets. The other possibility would be to make "Studded" Boots , that can be used by the same classes that can use the studded gaunts. also adding lightened swadian gaunts/boots //helmets (//for inf) to compliment other armor parts is an easy fix to this issue. Another way would be to allow transmutation of similar armors (Studdeds to noble gaunts, elmwood bow to ebony ...)


EDIT: i just overflew one full page of replies, to what woody said, it is just as viable to just make those small changes mentioned above, yet the thing about 1handed crossbow surely brings some attention. (people love firearms. so why not give the old swadian technology an upgrade?)

Right now I'm not convinced about the crossbow idea. If I wanted to play more of a ranged character on xbow it would be repeater or cm. Having the ability to reload and run or walk at the same time is a interesting idea but I don't think we would need more crossbows to do it. It could be a skill this hero has by default.

[DR.]

Wanted to reply to this but i was on my phone last night.

Wouldn't it make you a more skilled player to have the same amount of kills on a Ranger against a Warden?

Would agree with that.

You can say this for any class with something over another class. Royal Guard vs Pavise? Pavise requires more skill because it has lower shielding, so you have to manage your shield better.

ehhh yesss i still agree but its not about the shielding skill. I've said before if Pc had the same 10 Rg would still be the better or at least take less skill.

Rg has more armour + extra hp + shields have better stats (adding it can still use 2h/1hs quite well).
Pc has more movement speed + the shields do something else. (adding it can still use xbows quite well).

Overall Pc trades off some of the shield stats to be able to place them yet still does not get the same 10. Yes, it's a ranged class but like Leg he cant use both at the same time.

I would rather Pc getting the same shielding as rg than getting more armour or extra hp. This would make them more equivalent in my mind.

Hoplite vs Halberdier? Halberdier is harder to play, since Hoplite has potentially the highest damaging melee weapon in the game.

hmm lost me here. Hoplite and Mara can out damage Halb sure but if you bring up that fact up well to use a melee class you are getting very close to the bots... you will get hit eventually.
Ranger/Halb/Jugg can all take some hits and not care but playing more of a melee hero means you are 100% more of a glass cannon.

If you miss you're dead on mara if you miss with hoplite maybe you can use the shield in time but to use hoplite effectively you need to use the 1h mode where you can't even block. Note if you use a shield the stats are not as good.

This is even more so with Sentry/Senti/Ranger as having less armour.

Adding armour classes like Halb will always be able to pick up other peoples stuff so I can't see how an armoured hero would take more skill than a true melee hero.

A Ranger can pick up a Typhoon but a Warden cant pick up armour. Yes, I know you wish heroes could only use [that] gear but that change will never happen so you need to take into consideration armour heroes do have a big reason to get picked being the other heroes buffs can be picked up but this one cant.


Also adding the armour buff is always used vs a melee heroes skill can be unused for most or all waves in a run.

It's easy to play safe (armour hero) vs going in hard (melee hero) but playing a ranged hero is so much easier than both.

[Peleus]

Bust a Move

[Terath]

I really like this idea of having those 1 handed crossbows, warband conquest has already dark elvish 1h crossbows, and natives pistol works pretty much like you described above, reloading while walking (but not running), so all it would need is basically another animation, sound (if it won't use those modern swadian fire-crossbow-invention thingy aka flintlocks)

Maybe making it possible to use those one handed crossbows in an alternative mode, so that there can be a more accurate two handed shot, while the one handed is less accurate yet just still as powerful. (longer reload time one handed aswell?)
Removing too much damage from these one handed crossbows makes them too similar in damage rating of javelins/arrows


As for making Crossbow Gloves/Boots and the problem with players owning  Swadian Boots / Gauntlets / Studded Gauntlets, just like there was a possibility to change a swadian great helmet to a swadian helmet in the past (as there was some change in helmets. The other possibility would be to make "Studded" Boots , that can be used by the same classes that can use the studded gaunts. also adding lightened swadian gaunts/boots //helmets (//for inf) to compliment other armor parts is an easy fix to this issue. Another way would be to allow transmutation of similar armors (Studdeds to noble gaunts, elmwood bow to ebony ...)


EDIT: i just overflew one full page of replies, to what woody said, it is just as viable to just make those small changes mentioned above, yet the thing about 1handed crossbow surely brings some attention. (people love firearms. so why not give the old swadian technology an upgrade?)

Right now I'm not convinced about the crossbow idea. If I wanted to play more of a ranged character on xbow it would be repeater or cm. Having the ability to reload and run or walk at the same time is a interesting idea but I don't think we would need more crossbows to do it. It could be a skill this hero has by default.

It's not that simple. You would have to make the game itself understand if a character is an Aventurier or not, which I don't think it currently does - the server a player joins just pulls the player's stats and items from the website. This means that the item would have to be equipped for it to be different, and also be an entirely different item entry (since you'd need one of the normal crossbow and one of the Aventurier version and its 'special' code). Since there's already two entries of code pulling different stats from the website, you might as well make a whole new item, because the only thing remaining of the original item is the model / animation at that point. Another way to do it would be to have the website recognize that the player is Aventurier (obviously already does), and switch a normal crossbow with the Aventurier version when the crossbow is equipped by an Aventurier. The problem is, more code would still have to be written for this to be done, as a player would want to choose whether or not they actually wanted to use the Aventurier-changed crossbow (as it would have changed stats compared to a normal crossbow). And you still end up with just the model / animation being the same. So, in my eyes, it's better to make a new item tree that expands on an item type while also being relatively easy in implementation, compared to changing around an existing item's stats and functions while retaining its appearance.

Another thing that might help to see why I would want something like this is the ease of access on the field. The developer discussion some time ago left this aspect a little unclear on whether it was possible or not, but I wanted to be able to have either the ability to press X to switch between my sword and my crossbow or to have them both out at the same time.

The first one would be probably the most easily realized; I would just have to make a ton of different versions of items or Kip / Kaasovic would write a script that combined the two items in the code to make one item that switched when X was pressed. You would press X to switch from your one-handed sword (whatever that may be) to your one-handed crossbow. This ease of access would make Aventurier a lot more reactionary in a situation behind the barricades or out on the field; you could kill someone in one handed, then press X and switch to your crossbow, and shoot another guy. The ease of access is what would really sell the class for me.
A little math for item entries here: If there are four Aventurier swords (I think there are currently two), and there are four one-handed crossbows (most likely would be marketplace / personal crafted / house crafted / legendary), then I only have to create 16 item entries for each combination. This is how the horse / horse armour functions in the code, and this would not be either difficult or time consuming to do once the stats for the crossbows are completed.

The second one is a little... harder to realize. I have a limited understanding of how code works in Warband, as it isn't my job, so I'm still not even sure this method is possible. The idea is to have the one-handed crossbow in your left hand and your one-handed sword in your right hand. If you didn't have a sword equipped, the one-handed crossbow would be in your right hand, and if you didn't have a crossbow equipped you'd get a normal sword. You would press a filter button (like Ctrl or something rebindable) to shoot the crossbow - if you wanted to swing, you'd left click like normal, but if you wanted to shoot you'd hold Ctrl and click. This method is peak accessibility in my eyes, but I genuinely have no idea how this would be done. In practice, it might not even be worth it - the 'press X to switch' would possibly work better in the long run anyways. It's hard to tell. On top of that, I don't think base warband allows editing of where the item is placed, so I would have to make a custom animation that would place the item specifically in the left hand. Not necessarily a deal breaker, but it would be very complicated to pull this one off.

I believe this change would be similar to what makes Legionnaire so good - accessibility. You have both great close range and (supposed to just be) decent long range capabilities. You are never not fighting as a Legionnaire, because you can kill things no matter where they are. Having the ability to do this on another class with a different ranged weapon would add an alternative to Legionnaire - Legionnaire, a class with a sword, good armour, throwing weapons and potentially a shield, or Aventurier, a class with a sword, alright armour, and a crossbow (and potentially a shield? dunno). That's why I feel that it would really help this class and maybe potentially make it both really fun to play and pretty good in endgame, too. Just my personal take.

[Julia.]

We have 3 legendary swords usable by Aven, and 4 legendary 1h usable by sharpshooter. We have a housecrafted Aven sword and one for all heroes and one for personalcrafted for sharpshooter. That makes 10 1h's which an Aven is usable to bring in.

Technically also Wormbane, Splitter, Fire Blade.