Support - Builder Role

[Thaffy]

Here's one for you: Why do you pick a class? Possibly to use weapons for that class. Weapons that you are willing to upgrade. So why not place your own barricade? Why does support items have to be accessible for other players?

I agree with you that people should place their own cades, and the system works when people do. The problem arises when people don't, for whatever reason.
As Forward said while discussing this yesterday; Before the update you would wipe if everyone was lazy, now you will wipe if someone is lazy.

[Cut-Me-Own-Throat-Dibbler]

I think the idea of the new system is to make people more proactive. Like you said earlier, it used to be that most people would drop their cades and then relied on the fact that sooner or later someone would chicken out and build the cades. The main reasons for this kind of behavior seem to be:

1) Laziness.
2) Everyone did it.
3) People sometimes didn't know the proper spots.
4) If you misplaced a cade, people would mock/insult you.

Naturally, this was a much more convenient and easy system, but the real question is whether it makes the gameplay more interesting if 80% of the team drop their support item and then lean back and do nothing between waves.

One thing seems certain, though. Proactive engineers, competent shielders, and slashers seem to have become more important again.

[Green_Dragon]

I understand your point, Kaas. This is your baby aswell and I do respect all the work that
certainly came with it, but the above are valid points.
1) When half of the team is dead and you're unlucky, either all vital cades or all medic support
    will be unavailable, a wipe unavoidable and a lot of time lost, affecting in return the motivation
    to play rag for example as I've already heard ingame.
2) There are people in good and bad moods. Some will be lazy, some will try to troll, some will
    simply forget or be out of time to play their support as it should be.
    Are you ready for all that salt, all the reports and the corresponding hassle that this brings?

Here's what I think: Leave the cades and kits droppable as a fair compromise which will avoid
a lot of problems ingame. All fine with the rest, although I don't like it very much, personally
what building and support have become (just an opinion).

Otherwise, just a small mind game of a dialogue that may result from this:

"Wipe inc, thank u X"
"Sry forgot to build, (doorbell) afk for a sec - so sry"
"X! That was the 3,5th time you forgot! Those you build where crappy as s***"
"Also why no h, Y?"
"I was dead dumbass!"
"Yeah ofc. Saw you afk for at least 4,87876sec before"
"Lies!"
"Reported!"
"..."

[Bobo]

We all have to learn how it works now. Like Dibbler says: there'll be no more room for laziness, forgetting, etc. When you spawn, build your cade or else it will be lost and you will realize when wave 13 comes, that the cades are somewhat delicate for what's coming. And yes, the healers will be precious now, protect your healers guys 'cause they have the med box inside with no way to take it out...

Some problem I see, T3 walls are so thick now, how do you build 4 of them at once? You cannot do it at any angle as before when one corner of all cades could be set precisely in the same spot to provide a single-wall thickness.

[Forward]

It's not even about laziness. Let's say you have 10 enigineers in a run. So on wave 13 they need to respawn items, find better bow/xbow/arrows/bolts/throwables, if peltast spend time in queue to ammo box, and build their cades. And 30 seconds is simply not enough to do all these things (and if it's not respawn wave but just DFC on wave 14 lets say its even less time, 15 seconds may be). And there is not a lot of space to build, in best case only 2 engineers could build cades at once. So it's queue on building site as well. So why just don't drop your cade (I agree that doing so could substract from team BPs) and doing your refill things while raid leader, dedicated builder or RG building all cades making sure of right placement, correct gaps and such. Why this cade sharing feature was removed for a first time? It never was an issue.

And as Bobo said, walls are way too think now, rear braces or legs or whatever you call them in English should be removed from model for sure. And even make them overall thinner.

[The_Russian]

Some problem I see, T3 walls are so thick now, how do you build 4 of them at once? You cannot do it at any angle as before when one corner of all cades could be set precisely in the same spot to provide a single-wall thickness.

i used to pride myself on achieving exactly that reliably. Moreover i didn't trust the rest of the team to do so and 90% of the time rightly so. 90% of my house was "just here to kill shit" and my RG formed the habit for myself to build a cade that can be depended upon for my house and by extension any tom dick or harry who showed up.

Here's one for you: Why do you pick a class? Possibly to use weapons for that class. Weapons that you are willing to upgrade. So why not place your own barricade? Why does support items have to be accessible for other players?

I agree with you that people should place their own cades, and the system works when people do. The problem arises when people don't, for whatever reason.
As Forward said while discussing this yesterday; Before the update you would wipe if everyone was lazy, now you will wipe if someone is lazy.

i'd like to note one's choice of killing capacity sits quite astride from one's choice of support contribution. To Bring the support contribution is the minimum requirement, Knowing what to do with it is something that is learned with experience and cannot be expected of a player from the get go upon choosing said support class. I've been refining my engineering skills over the past 4-5 odd years I've been on and off this mod and cades have physically changed shape in that time. That experience taught me the ideal shield gap width, how to place to keep cades neat and jump-able and the basic principles that decide cade location. I also learned that having 2 people try to build at the same time invariably has disastrous consequences (one shc atop the other) and that large concentrations of people in a build location makes building...well incredibly infuriating. I came to this mod because i wanted a killbox to kill things in and i discovered a chillbox to chill in so applying the pressure for everyone to build, to me, isn't all that "chill". I understand completely the desire to put that responsibility on people because it can appear incredibly lazy to expect a good builder to be present but no-one learns to be that good builder if you don't wipe a few times for not having one. No lesson worth learning is learned easily. I had a few ideas for compromise on this topic but most of them involved having a team pool of cades of varying build costs that weren't based on what support item people bring in but instead had build point totals based on what level supports are present of which types. so for example medics can "purchase" medic boxes of varying kinds for these support points and the higher a medic one is (and the more of them there are) the better heals will be available not only to them but to anyone who retrieves said support upon that players death. Applying the same principle to cades this would provide More tactical flexibility to the team. I'm yet to work out how barrel and tome would fit into that system but my point is flexibility is a merit of the old system that we can ill afford to loose. The more Rigid the system the more rigidly obvious the chances of success or wipe.

TL;DR sorry for the paragraph. My key point here is tactical flexibility is as paramount in clutch as it is in ez gg.

Omg, The Russian posting.

IKR

[Bobo]

However, I can see now that the T3 walls can be built into single thickness and at desired angle. It just requires a bit experience, they are more difficult to build now in a very precise way but it is possible.

[lordborg]

I feel like this might drag on for a while, just saying i like how it all is and all but as it has already been said, i don't want to come on for say like 1 hour thats like a rag run say 13 players 4 of us know what to do, but say like 2 have a idea, then 7 got cades of some what, and rest tomes meds and like say two guys that got walls and shc but never in there life placed one right? the chance of me getting that rag done or wipe is high? then i wasted 35 to 40mins? i mean its easy for you to say well dont come on then, but it might have to come to that as i can see its going to get messy, 3 failed rags runs and like 5 or 6 hard runs cuz no one is useing there cades?

[Coconut]

I love the new healing system.

The new cading system, is maybe a little too punishing for public servers.

[Bobo]

Patience. We shall learn how to do cades right, and maybe some changes will come, too.