suggestions for Ranger/Halb and Jugg

[DR.]

This game doesn't need 16 classes at all.

It has them tho.


For me as said here I would love new classes and I'm not alone. --> https://forum.nordinvasion.com/showthread.php?tid=71446

Making new classes is hard work yes so why make new classes when we have classes almost none plays. Turn them into heroes we want to play not heroes we get because of (x) reason. 


For how much i want a class like Assassin from my post in truth it's not needed. For why well the assassin class i want is having good speed and the best 2h skill and maybe 1h or some other skill. (at the cost of having low armour)

This is what Sentry/Sneti need to be for a class like that to be picked. The 2h/1h skill NEEDS to be better than Zwei/Leg to make up for less armour.

7. RG

Did you just say Rg has a high skill cap. I could of put it at number one but i guess walking around was harder than some heroes. 

Turns out im a b0ss at playing Rg.

[Forward]

7. RG

Did you just say Rg has a high skill cap. I could of put it at number one but i guess walking around was harder than some heroes. 

Turns out im a b0ss at playing Rg.

That was list of classes I would leave in the game, not skill ceiling rating.

I don't have enough experience with all classes to talk about skill cap. I can only say you don't need to evaluate all weapons in that ceiling rating, because you never use 1h on Legio, for example, anyway. Yes, you kill a trickster with it once per hour, much needed, wow.

[DR.]

That was list of classes I would leave in the game, not skill ceiling rating.

Taking away heroes just because you don't want them is your opinion but you would make most people mad with thinking this way.

I don't have enough experience with all classes to talk about skill cap.

Ye, I'm in a handful or not even that has every hero and has been playing from almost the start.

Yes, i have good experience with all heroes so my opinion could have more backing behind it but it doesn't stop other people having them.  

I can only say you don't need to evaluate all weapons in that ceiling rating, because you never use 1h on Legio, for example, anyway. Yes, you kill a trickster with it once per hour, much needed, wow.

You missed the point of this odder.

I'm only considering the main reason to pick each hero.

For Leg, this is your opinion but for me and even Terath its atm a 1h 1st and throwing 2nd. Mp will always be a better thrower but Leg at least for the monument is the best at 1hs.

[Forward]

I'm only considering the main reason to pick each hero.

For Leg, this is your opinion but for me and even Terath its atm a 1h 1st and throwing 2nd. Mp will always be a better thrower but Leg at least for the monument is the best at 1hs.

I'm talking about min-maxing and playing optimally. You and Terath can use 1h whatever, you're losing DPS by doing that, so it's irrelevant how you evaluate Legio. Truth is 1handers have no use as main weapon in this mod (except being a hipster ofc).

[DR.]

You and Terath can use 1h whatever, you're losing DPS by doing that, so it's irrelevant how you evaluate Legio. Truth is 1handers have no use as main weapon in this mod (except being a hipster ofc).

I feel like we need Winter here to say i made the class.


Throwing on leg is not meant to be the main reason to pick it. The talk i had with Terath said the same thing.

Tbh way too long to look through just to find the right quote but ill give it a go.

I still have no idea what comparing a throwing axe to two bastard weapons means, as they are completely different items with completely different usages. Malice is not a bastard weapon, it's a throwing weapon with an alternate mode for close combat.

It has 2 modes that the comparison if we look at ab, for example, its 2h stats and 1h stats seem to be equivalent to a not as good dur and a not as good mortifer. Hence why i said 50/50 as years ago this was not the case as the 2h mode was where the stats were and the 1h mode was a "last resort". Think it may have been Winter that said the stats of Ab have been put as 50/50 idk this was years ago at this point.

We still have stuff like Rups were i think we can agree the "1h" mode does not hold a candle to the stats of the throwing hence why i said 90% on the throwing and 10 on that shity 1h.

What i suggest is moving Malice to more of a 55/45 or 60/40 with throwing still being the arguably better stated part of Malice. Then for Glory you could have it at the same % as Malice or i would make the throwing better at the cost of the 1h stats being not as good as they could be. eg 75/25.

Okay, now I understand what you meant. In my mind, ideally, I'd want Legionnaire weapons to be equally good in both throwing and one handed capability, as to allow players to choose what kind of Legionnaire they want to play - one handed focus with secondary throwing through using Swadian Courage or Excalibur, or throwing focus with secondary one-handed through using 50/50 weapons like Malice and Glory and no dedicated one-hander (or a mix of both). Currently, Malice is too short to really be a viable one-handed substitute so it would kind of make sense to be a weighted focus on throwing at somewhere like 60/40. I see Glory as practically a throwable sword, so I'd want it to be around 50/50 - good in one-handed and good in throwing. Currently, since it pulls its damage from polearm, that doesn't work, so it's really just a sub-par throwing spear at the moment. After the update, it should see some more love.

Why I'm not sure 50/50 would be a good idea is it may push to close to the 1hs.

Take Ab, for example
Between Dragon Sword and Mortifer we have the stats for 1h Ab 
Between Vgs and Dur we have the stats of 2h Ab 

being a 50/50 like Ab seems like the stats put it lower by half a level that's if a level was going from orange to all hero for example.

In saying this if Glory was a 50/50 the stats would be between twigs and rups, yes but the 1h would be between Exc and Mortifer. So the 1h on Glory would be as good as Illus or Ragnars.

Doing a 75/25 would put Glory even closer to Rups however now its 1h mode should be idk Ab level ish?

That's like 1/10th of the talk we had. I'm sure i could have quoted something better but that will do.  

You can see the plain for Legs throwing items is not meant to be a pure throwing item. 
Leg throwing items will have the same number of "points" as mp throwing weapons but with more of the "points"  are spent on the 1h stats. 
The class is more of a 1h hero than you think.


Throwing got added onto Leg for the same problem Senti and Avent face. 1h heroes need help as that skill and others like it is not that useful in rag as you have pointed out. Throwing on Leg is to make up for this problem but not to fix that problem. 

Part of that post and the main topic on jugg/halb/ranger asked for a reason to play heroes like Leg. Leg has a reason to play it and i don't need to say it again.


Btw
Guess you don't know but for some time ago Legs throwing was not even as good as a tr4 pikeman and at the start, it didn't have any if i remember right.

[Forward]

You and Terath can use 1h whatever, you're losing DPS by doing that, so it's irrelevant how you evaluate Legio. Truth is 1handers have no use as main weapon in this mod (except being a hipster ofc).

I feel like we need Winter here to say i made the class.


Throwing on leg is not meant to be the main reason to pick it. The talk i had with Terath said the same thing.

Tbh way too long to look through just to find the right quote but ill give it a go.

I still have no idea what comparing a throwing axe to two bastard weapons means, as they are completely different items with completely different usages. Malice is not a bastard weapon, it's a throwing weapon with an alternate mode for close combat.

It has 2 modes that the comparison if we look at ab, for example, its 2h stats and 1h stats seem to be equivalent to a not as good dur and a not as good mortifer. Hence why i said 50/50 as years ago this was not the case as the 2h mode was where the stats were and the 1h mode was a "last resort". Think it may have been Winter that said the stats of Ab have been put as 50/50 idk this was years ago at this point.

We still have stuff like Rups were i think we can agree the "1h" mode does not hold a candle to the stats of the throwing hence why i said 90% on the throwing and 10 on that shity 1h.

What i suggest is moving Malice to more of a 55/45 or 60/40 with throwing still being the arguably better stated part of Malice. Then for Glory you could have it at the same % as Malice or i would make the throwing better at the cost of the 1h stats being not as good as they could be. eg 75/25.

Okay, now I understand what you meant. In my mind, ideally, I'd want Legionnaire weapons to be equally good in both throwing and one handed capability, as to allow players to choose what kind of Legionnaire they want to play - one handed focus with secondary throwing through using Swadian Courage or Excalibur, or throwing focus with secondary one-handed through using 50/50 weapons like Malice and Glory and no dedicated one-hander (or a mix of both). Currently, Malice is too short to really be a viable one-handed substitute so it would kind of make sense to be a weighted focus on throwing at somewhere like 60/40. I see Glory as practically a throwable sword, so I'd want it to be around 50/50 - good in one-handed and good in throwing. Currently, since it pulls its damage from polearm, that doesn't work, so it's really just a sub-par throwing spear at the moment. After the update, it should see some more love.

Why I'm not sure 50/50 would be a good idea is it may push to close to the 1hs.

Take Ab, for example
Between Dragon Sword and Mortifer we have the stats for 1h Ab 
Between Vgs and Dur we have the stats of 2h Ab 

being a 50/50 like Ab seems like the stats put it lower by half a level that's if a level was going from orange to all hero for example.

In saying this if Glory was a 50/50 the stats would be between twigs and rups, yes but the 1h would be between Exc and Mortifer. So the 1h on Glory would be as good as Illus or Ragnars.

Doing a 75/25 would put Glory even closer to Rups however now its 1h mode should be idk Ab level ish?

That's like 1/10th of the talk we had. I'm sure i could have quoted something better but that will do.  

You can see the plain for Legs throwing items is not meant to be a pure throwing item. 
Leg throwing items will have the same number of "points" as mp throwing weapons but with more of the "points"  are spent on the 1h stats. 
The class is more of a 1h hero than you think.


Throwing got added onto Leg for the same problem Senti and Avent face. 1h heroes need help as that skill and others like it is not that useful in rag as you have pointed out. Throwing on Leg is to make up for this problem but not to fix that problem. 

Part of that post and the main topic on jugg/halb/ranger asked for a reason to play heroes like Leg. Leg has a reason to play it and i don't need to say it again.


Btw
Guess you don't know but for some time ago Legs throwing was not even as good as a tr4 pikeman and at the start, it didn't have any if i remember right.

There are 2 uses for 1h-weapons in PvE mod like NI:

• killing tricksters in-between waves;
  
• for RG to reset AFK timer.
  

There is no other uses of 1h-weapons. Legionnaire class should've not exist in the first place. Should be merged with MP.

Like several other classes:

• Juggernaut: definition of being useless in every aspect, the idea behind it just don't work in PvE
  
• Halberdier: easily can be merged with marauder.
  
• Archer classes except Warden: only DPS matters for ranged DD, they can't slash/shield/whatever they do effectively anyway
  
• Pavise Champion: no bonus hp = can't shield, no access to top xbows = can't DPS, could be merged with RG for him not being useless in full-caded runs
  
• Aventurier: crossbowmans can't kite, I'd rather believe in Repeaterman kiting then this one
  

I talk about Rag always obviously, other modes can be played with whatever, but why would you play them.

[Winter]

"You can be a wampire, if you really want to."

[Elmo]

I feel dumber after reading this thread.

[Julia.]

Forward, I am fairly certain that some heros might not be specialized in what they can do, but that fies not mean they are useless and can be merged.

I can perfectly shield as Pavise without the (as you said OP) bonus HP, it simply takes good healers at Thor. And even if not, I can bring in better shields for RGs in a lot of cases. Also I am fairly certain that I can bring in a Blessed Eagle as Pavise which I'd say is the best to peek ranged. Cm with Deadshot deals less dps on ranged compared to that because most shots are simply an overkill.

As with Legio, its a complete diffrent play style when you get into melee, and if you claim 1h are useless besides killing tricksters and resetting afk timers... Just no. They are faster than 2h/polearms and do not get stuck so fast. Yes, maybe they dont deal as much damage with one swing but they just aint meant to be there to hit nords at the cades as first purpose.

If all ranged played archer with 2stacks of arrows and a shield, who would kill those breaking through? I guess noone. You need some sort of weapon to kill nords, it wont work if we all hide behind shields and just waited for what to come.

[Forward]

Forward, I am fairly certain that some heros might not be specialized in what they can do, but that fies not mean they are useless and can be merged.

I can perfectly shield as Pavise without the (as you said OP) bonus HP, it simply takes good healers at Thor. And even if not, I can bring in better shields for RGs in a lot of cases. Also I am fairly certain that I can bring in a Blessed Eagle as Pavise which I'd say is the best to peek ranged. Cm with Deadshot deals less dps on ranged compared to that because most shots are simply an overkill.

As with Legio, its a complete diffrent play style when you get into melee, and if you claim 1h are useless besides killing tricksters and resetting afk timers... Just no. They are faster than 2h/polearms and do not get stuck so fast. Yes, maybe they dont deal as much damage with one swing but they just aint meant to be there to hit nords at the cades as first purpose.

If all ranged played archer with 2stacks of arrows and a shield, who would kill those breaking through? I guess noone. You need some sort of weapon to kill nords, it wont work if we all hide behind shields and just waited for what to come.

About Pavise Champion:
1. You can't bring better shields for RG, Tower is worse then SoK (for pure shielding purposes).
2. Though someone should kill ranged, you would have more DPS with Repeater/Aila.
3. But CM is not for DPS, it's for boss killing.
4. Merge would be beneficial for both RG and Pavise as Pavise get OP HP and access to top shields and RG be useful in full-caded.
5. If even somehow you convince me that Pavise is needed, I posted 8 mergeable classes we so can talk about other 7

About 1h:
There is no playstyle for getting into melee, and same about Juggernaut. If many bots break through you either kite either wipe. If several bots break through I don't even need 1h as archer, because jump away and headshot solve this problem more efficient then dueling the bot for ages with Power Strike 4 and 1h skill 150. Yes as many classes you can do that, but such self-defence is not main class function anyway.